Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
Umm...just to clear some misconceptions, Sahabaas did collect Hadith in written form. For more information dig out my thread on Hadith Misconceptions.
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
^ Sharaabi ..
He is pervaizi minded... just to warn you...so that you don't get tied up in useless arguments with him...
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
WHom u Pointing Out Bhai.If u think I m Pervaizi U live in a fool paradise.Bhai i just follow quran.Can u prove tht all Saha sita Books r Muhammad (pbuh)words.then Prove me?how could it possible to collect those words which has been spoken 250 years ago?Dont u think in Mohammad era there were kafir and munafkins too?why didnt Muhammad (pbuh) write a books himself about their sunnah?why all sahaba including Abu BAkar (RATA) Umer(RATA) didnt collect the Sunnah of Our beloved prophet?AUr Jin kisaam ke Ahdihts In books main is ko kaam az kaam main nahi manta ke yea Muhammad(pbuh)ke words hai App manatay tu app apnay sinay se lagayeen rooz e Ikhraat ko app ko jawab mil jaye ga.MAin Tu Ummar(rata)ke Naqshay kadam per chaal raha hoo.on ke alfaz thai.Humhare Liye Allah ke Kitab KAfi hai
Allah hum sab Muslim per raham kare
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
[quote=Sharaabi]
Umm...just to clear some misconceptions, Sahabaas did collect Hadith in written form.
Where tht Hadiths hve Gone?and how many Hadiths sahaba had collected.My bro dont Lie.They were the most trusted people in Ummmat e Mohammadi.Allah in se razi ha Because they Only follow The Quran.In k liye Allah ke Kitab Kafi thi.See this ayaat(9:100)
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
aray fools hell main tau tum ho who thinks the crap from Ghulam Pervaiz is true and follows him...
Go now...fish in some other pond...shabash....
Agar pervaiz ko mantay ho tau pher jhoot kay pulanday mut bando....
Give it up...
You are
e x p o s e d!!!
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
Can someone answer the points I mentioned? I am still looking for someone knowledgible in the science of hadith to ask questions here yet no one answers the call.
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
Go now...fish in some other pond...shabash....
Agar pervaiz ko mantay ho tau pher jhoot kay pulanday mut bando....
Give it up...
You are e x p o s e d!!!
Bhai Pervaiz Sahab hi sirf quran nahi parhtay aur samjhtay.Yea tu har musalman karta hai.App mujhe khama kaha pervaizi kah rahi hai.
Bhai I hve read all the Authors who hve only belive in Quran.Quran is the Only Book which is Being Proctected By Allah.
Allama Iqbal
Sir syed
Pervaiz
Tammana Emmadi
Ubaid Ullah Sindhi
Master din Muhammad
main in sab ko partha hoo Mere pass Saha sita Ke collection hai.Main Tafsir Bin Ibn e Kasir Parhta hoo.sab hi ko parhta hoo Warna main Itnay Wasooq se Post Nahi kar raha hoota MAin Yahaan Jagharnay Nahi Ata bhai.Muslim main Itnay firqay kion hai.Agar yea Ek Allah ko Mantay hai tu why they hve been divided.Agar App nazar Doora lain tu App ko samjh Ajaye ga.Shia ke Pass apni Ahdees Ke books hai Sunni ke Pass dono ka claim yea hai ke yea True words hai Muhammad(pbuh)ke mera Sidha sawaal yea hai kia.Muhammad (pbuh)ke zindagaye Aisi thi jisi in books main hai?Kia Muhammad (pbuh) 5 tariqay se Salaat Ada karty thai?Agar Mujhe Mohammad( PBUH)ko follow karna hai Tu kis sec se karoo.App ke sec se?Bhai Yea books Jo ke Ummat E Mohammadi ke Jaan hai In main se Ek book bhi App aur App ke sahaba nay nahi Likhi.YEa Muhammad(pbuh) ke Taraf Mansoob ke jatay hai Jo words aur Ahdees Quote ke Jaty hai YEa Muhammad(pbuh)ke Alfaz hooye nahi saktay.MAin ek Blind follower nahi hoo.
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
GS and science of hadiths?
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
Sorry USResident, i have read about collection of Ahadeeth but cannot answer your question with some authority, but still it seems logical to me. Willingly or unwillingly mattan must have changed. That is why our shia brothers quote a lot of Ahadith from Sahi Bukhari to negate us. Like the one where Hazrat Muhammad asked for a piece of paper and qalam to write final orders and Hazrat Umar said that we do not require anything more and said that probably he is talking in the intensity of pain blah blah. I just do not believe it no matter where it has appeared.
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
Yup, I know. Well my wait goes on ...
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
for sake of arguments any one who say Ahadees are not authentic
then the Athenticity of Quran is also not there for him
as the people who brings the Ahadees also brings the Quran
if they are telling lie on one part then they will also telling lie on other
second most important
Ahadees and Quran are both part of same Wahi
Quran is the wahi that is used to be religously read ( talawat )
Ahadees is the wahi to understand islamic concepts deeply
so the person rejecting ahdeeds is also a rejector of Quran
and by this way he is non muslim
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
as the people who brings the Ahadees also brings the Quran if they are telling lie on one part then they will also telling lie on other
second most important Ahadees and Quran are both part of same Wahi Quran is the wahi that is used to be religously read ( talawat ) Ahadees is the wahi to understand islamic concepts deeply
so the person rejecting ahdeeds is also a rejector of Quran and by this way he is non muslim
Only if he rejects hadith altogether. Selective criticism is actually needed today.
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
criticising some hadees based on only limited knowledge is not good thing
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
r u sure or r u guessing this???
who told u that the matan is not checked in hadith???
the chain is important so u know who is the person who is carying this information on to u…
if any one of the people in the chain is not reliable, the hadeeth is not regarded as authentic (unless there is another hadith of similar meaning with another chain to verify it)…
not only is the subject matter checked, but also the words and the language of the hadith…
the Prophet (saw) had his own style and ppl do check the language of the narration to see if the words cud actually be of the Prophet (saw)…
the science of hadith is so wide that ppl with limited knowledge of the subject like us think that its just a random of collection of sayings…
take imam malik (ra) for example, he wrote his collection of hadith, very early after the Prophet (saw)‘s death…
he was the son of a sahabi and lived in madinah…
he collected hadith from authentic ppl and only kept those ahadith in his book on which he found the ppl of madinah to be acting…
he did not believe that the Prophet (saw) wud have said something and ppl wud stop acting on it, so only those hadith were kept by him which were approved by the actions of the people of the city of the Prophet (saw)…
and then, after the compilation, he passed his book on to (i think) 60 scholars of the time and got it approved by all of them, hence he called it “muwatta” meaning the "approved or authenticated’…
this is just one example to show u how much care the people took in hadith…
different ppl had different benchmarks to check the authenticity of narrations…
but ppl who wish to ridicule religion, try to reject hadith, because that is where the deen is more clearly explained…
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
Who is rejecting Hadith or Rejecting that we do not care about what prophet said. Issue under discussion is different. It is regarding the error margin in compilation of Ahadith. Can any body explain to me the hadith about Hazrat Muhammad (p.b.u.h) final order about paper and pen and refusal by hazrat Umar. (any sunni including me). I mean if that is true, why are we still sunni? That is simply not possible but still reflected by sahih bukhariUsman the issue is not all Ahadeeth or Hadith as spoken by prohet. Quran was compiled just after Prophet's death so the error margin was not left. Hadith were done a bit later therefore there may be a possibility of some out of all being erroneously quoted. what we are talking about is not blanket rejection of ahadeeth but taking care by comparing them to be with teachings of Quran or not. okay, just do not blame every one to be a pervaizi or Ghamadee follower.
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
Criticism can be fixed by providing the proper explanation. You inject the person with more knowledge about what he is asking and change his perception instead of chastising them. Anyone with limited knowledge about almost anything questions and when his questions go unanswered he forms his own opinion until and unless someone changes it.
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
Armughal and US resident:
AOA WRWB
USR I think I answered your question on Matan verification in a PM once when you inquired about it.
However you still seem to be wondering about it. Perhaps the answer was not to your satifaction.
Armughal:
I can open a new thread on that topic because USR keeps saying this over and over again that Matan is of concern to him. Very importantly, the matan 1/2 part (and according to some 1/3rd part) of ahadith is verified and looked into.
But that requires a discussion in a clean thread. Not this one.
This thread was opened to ridicule basic Aqeedah of muslims by trying to justify Pervaizi type doctrine.
What do you suggest?
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
AOA WRWB
USR I think I answered your question on Matan verification in a PM once when you inquired about it. However you still seem to be wondering about it. Perhaps the answer was not to your satifaction. Armughal: I can open a new thread on that topic because USR keeps saying this over and over again that Matan is of concern to him. Very importantly, the matan 1/2 part (and according to some 1/3rd part) of ahadith is verified and looked into. But that requires a discussion in a clean thread. Not this one. This thread was opened to ridicule basic Aqeedah of muslims by trying to justify Pervaizi type doctrine. What do you suggest?
Actually Antumul you didn't answer it in the PM. You just said we can talk about it and thats as far as it got. I say lets open a new thread and discuss.
This was your last reply:
OK In general the methods are the same but the accessiblity to information was and is quite different.
The companions on some occasion when in doubt as a famous incident of b/w Abu huraira RA and another Sahabi would ask each other whether the one narrating the hadeeth was sure or not. In the incident above, Abu Huraira RA took the sahabi to Aisha RA and to confirm whether the hadeeth he was mentioning was true or not. She verified that it was. (obviously this is after the death of Rasul Allah SAW).
For the ones who came after and only saw one or two sahabis (so they are considered Tabi-yees) verified by actual travells to find the narrators and see their personal conditions or "health" as well. Health here means their Taqwa (truthfulness, morality, strenght of memory etc.) As you might know bukhari and others would make istikhara for many nights before writing down any "athar" as an actual hadeeth. The modern ones who had much more books and all of this information regarding the "health" available in texts, would not need to travell physically. They would scrutinize the books other than the popular saheeh 6 such as compilations of Al-Hakim, Beyhqee etc.. per the same rules and have found many verified hadeeth from all collections. Now all of the work of the loater ones is pure ijtihaad. Whereas the former ones found mroe actual physical evidence by first hand meetings. Even though they also relied on ijtihaad but not as much as the modern ones. So for a narrator if proven in texts as a "liar" or in others as "fabricator" of hadeeth the condition of the hadeeth becomes an immediate question. Then the same hadeeth is sought from other chains. If the same hadeeth (content or matan) is the same and a strong/sound chain of narrators is present then the hadeeth would be accepted. Only the chain which contains the liar or fabricator is present would be rejected. Do you see what I mean? For example bukhari contain many hadeeth that are repetitions. And so do the other hadeeth texts. They have similar content / matan hadeeths. Chains are diffferent. So they are recorded multiple times. Sometimes matan has minor differences and hence recorded multiple times. So the verification is mainly of the chain (asnad) and then for that the matan also plays an important part.
There is a famous "athar" called "15 punishments of the grave" . The content of this very long "athar" is present in many other hadeeth in fragments. The smaller versions that talk about punishment in the grave have been found to be from sound narrations/chains / asnad. The longer one has a known liar in its chain. So Dhahabi rejects the longer one. He advises to use the smaller ones as they essentially talk about the same material. Some other scholars argue that since the longer one is essentially a long version of all the smaller ones, then accept it even if 1 narrator is a liar. They say do this for "encouragement" purposes not for deriving law from it. It is a complicated science and the reasons for rejecting and accepting differ on what context or purpose the hadeeth is being considered for.
Clear as mud! :) WAllahu Alam - if I said anything that is not correct then it is from my nafs and sheytan and that is good is from Allah SWT.
ASAK
What I am looking for is a bulleted list for criteria used to verify the matan of a hadith then we can expland our discussion.
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
This was your last reply:
What I am looking for is a bulleted list for criteria used to verify the matan of a hadith then we can expland our discussion.
Hve u read Tammana Emadi sahab?
Re: Whos the Biggest scholars of Quran
YEs but I will not open it untill the mods say it is better. Becuase they need to look at it after words. and I might not be able to answer every post in it.
Also it will be open to hadeeth rejectors to come in the middle and try to misdirect the whole discussion.