[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
as far as voting goes, how many ppl even took this poll seriously. I bet that if you had put elvis or santa their he would have gained some votes too.
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Read PT's post and tell me if people took it seriously or are just plain idiots.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr. Fantastic: *
I think Muslims are following apart. Remeber Spain where Muslims ruled for over 700 years, why they were kicked out of that place? No one can defeat Muslims only Muslims can defeat themselves by jealousy and hate. When some people advice our brother Muslims to grab a snipper or a gun instead of a pen or a pencil, I think we are going at wrong path. Wake up and be nice to each other.
As long as 9/11 goes, I believe Al-Qaida and OBL was behind it and if any American is reading my post I just want to say that I am really very very sorry to what had happened. Also another suggestion that U.S.A has very big diversity. I have always tought of U.S.A as a glass, which is clear so please do not with your act make a scratch of hate that can never be replaced.
PEACE
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Nice :)
We are reading yours 
4000 jews took vacation at the same day/time 
Just brilliant 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
Read PT's post and tell me if people took it seriously or are just plain idiots.
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maybe you are taking his taunts too seriously :)
number of votes are more than number of posts so who knows who voted for what. for all I know u could have voted for zionists :)
You know what fraudz, I don't really give a siht what community college dropouts have to say about the state of global economy and politics let alone their own country.
If we were to go back on this very forum and check threads from oct or sept last year many of these clowns are still parroting that Osama is their hero and he is innocent, show us the proof (which AJ has nicely put forth) etc. There is no introspection only more displacement of the blame.
i understand what you are saying but unless there is some reformation in the thinking of these people they will lose out, literally.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
You know what fraudz, I don't really give a siht what community college dropouts have to say about the state of global economy and politics let alone their own country.
If we were to go back on this very forum and check threads from oct or sept last year many of these clowns are still parroting that Osama is their hero and he is innocent, show us the proof (which AJ has nicely put forth) etc. There is no introspection only more displacement of the blame.
i understand what you are saying but unless there is some reformation in the thinking of these people they will lose out, literally.
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Yeah right.
Ahmadjee..
I'm surprised that you underestimate the powers of 'hawkish CIA'.. it's not just the french who know how they are the executors of all that's unlawful for whatever the government wants done.
The quest for Central Asian oil may or may not have been the motive, but the opportunity was certainly grabbed gladly.
Not a lot adds up at the Osama end.. i mean give me a break.. an arab living in a cave in Afghanistan?? worse he can do is kill dogs who aren't black or women who are showing some ankle.. planning something like this requires an IQ greater than the monkeys those morons are..
Praising someone for something doesn't incriminate them. He can eulogise the idiots who carried out the attack all he wants.. but I don't consider them able enough to pull something this big.
That’s very true PA, but when you add up Khobar bombing, Cole bombing, Embassy bombing, beheading of Reporters, then it’s probably a safe bet (at least it is probable) that they are capable of inflicting a lot of damage.
The issue with some people is that they will never believe it even if they saw it with their own eyes. Not because they are blind, but just because. When something on this scale happens in Pakistan, we will see fingers pointed out in only one direction: CIA.
Ahmadjee Bhai Jan. You should have included ISI as a choice. I would have voted for it.
CH
I understand what you are saying about introspection. I think with the conspiracy therories rampant for anythng from 9/11 to JFK and elvis, you will find ppl who give in to conspiracy theories everywhere.
In this case it was a huge shock to a lot of people, muslims especially american muslims or muslims in america had the worst of it. How do you try explain thats not what you believe, that you will never support such actions, and at some point in time being an apologist just becomes a pain in the ass. In my case I was on my best behavior as I felt I was a personal ambassador representing my faith..and then i said screw it, some ppl just wont get it and I would rather not deal with it and I should not have to justufy my existence to someone who is only interested in taunting me..i.e. some people just are not worth the effort.
Anyhow, the point is this. some people will not budge, but that does not mean that ppl give up discussion and communication, because there are others who can communicate, listen, learn, understand.
Now, as much as I think osama had a hand in it, if not direct planning then of financial support or use of the network for funds or for recruits etc. I have no way to be personally sure that it was not some other person, I can trust my leaders to tell me the facts. In a strictly legal sense has a case been made which is beyond a reasonable doubt. I mean even in cases where the person is guilty as sin..he walks free because there was some reasonable doubt ( OJ comes to mind), and there are also cases where an innocent person gets punished (as dna tests on death row inmates have shown)
so keeping emotions about the magnitude of this act out. if you were perry mason lets say..is there enough evidence that has been shared with us that points the finger solidly at OBL. Lets just focus on the evidence, would the evidence be enough to incriminate him completely with no wiggle room.
Maybe a discussion of this sort would help some naysayers come around to the facts.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
That’s very true PA, but when you add up Khobar bombing, Cole bombing, Embassy bombing, beheading of Reporters, then it’s probably a safe bet (at least it is probable) that they are capable of inflicting a lot of damage..
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Ny I agree with ya, in a legal sense how much of the past actiosn be included as a proof and what else becomes extra to the case. capability, motivation and even gloating does not add up to proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
See, we all KNOW it was him,m but can we prove it. I knew who used to steal my food in the fraternity house but I could not prve it until I caught him stealing it in presence of witnesses ahahah and there still was a reasoable doubt cuz he said he had not stolen my stuff previously.
ya know what I mean?
Fraudz: I am ot saying one needs to be an apologists but the likelyhood of a zionist conspiracy makes a mockery of 3000 deaths. 2 of whom I knew personally and a few others whose funerals I attended. The interesting thing is that both of my friends that I lost were in B-School with me and were not Americans.
People who espouse the thought that 4000 jews got an advance warning have no basis for their assumption. Secondly their hatred for jews, Amercans and others only shines through brightly. Too often on this BB.
CH
I lost friends there too. as far as hatred goes, I have seen it on this BB from all directions. we have seen hateful Pakistanis and msulims, we have seen hateful americans, we have seen hateful indians and we have seen hateful hindus.
All we can do is communicate to the ones who have an ability to discuss and not just diss, and try to talk some sense into those closest to us. sadly not many of us do that.
Here is an op/ed piece by tom friedman in today’s times on how we should talk about Spet 11th to our kids and hopefully others
I particularly like larry miller’s take and the following quote
"Their grievance is rooted in psychology, not politics; their goal is to destroy America, not reform it; they can only be defeated, not negotiated with. ?
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/04/opinion/04FRIE.html
9/11 Lesson Plan
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
he Times just ran an article about the trouble teachers were having in deciding what to tell students on Sept. 11. That’s a serious question. This is a moment for moral clarity, and here are the three lessons I would teach:
Lesson #1: Who are they? This lesson would emphasize that while most people in the world are good and decent, there are evil people out there who are not poor, not abused — but envious. These extremists have been raised in societies that have failed to prepare them for modernity, and the most evil among them chose on Sept. 11 to lash out at the symbol of modernity — America. As the Egyptian playwright Ali Salem put it in Time magazine, “Beneath their claims . . . these extremists are pathologically jealous. They feel like dwarfs, which is why they search for towers and all those who tower mightily.” Their grievance is rooted in psychology, not politics; their goal is to destroy America, not reform it; they can only be defeated, not negotiated with.
Assigned reading: Larry Miller’s Jan. 14, 2002, essay in The Weekly Standard: “Listen carefully: We’re good, they’re evil, nothing is relative. Say it with me now and free yourselves. You see, folks, saying We're good' doesn't mean We’re perfect.’ Okay? The only perfect being is the bearded guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The plain fact is that our country has, with all our mistakes and blunders, always been and always will be the greatest beacon of freedom, charity, opportunity, and affection in history. If you need proof, open all the borders on Earth and see what happens. In about half a day, the entire world would be a ghost town, and the United States would look like one giant line to see `The Producers.’ . . . So here’s what I resolve: To never forget our murdered brothers and sisters. To never let the relativists get away with their immoral thinking. After all, no matter what your daughter’s political science professor says, we didn’t start this.”
Lesson #2: Who are we? We Americans are not better than any other people, but the Western democratic system we live by is the best system on earth. Unfortunately, in the Arab-Muslim world, there is no democracy, too few women’s rights and too little religious tolerance. It is the values and traditions of freedom embraced by Western civilization, and the absence of those values and traditions in the Arab-Muslim world, that explain the main differences between us.
Assigned reading: “An Autumn of War,” by the military historian Victor Davis Hanson: “Our visionaries must be far clearer about the nature of our struggle. In their understandable efforts to say what we are not doing — fighting Islam or provoking Arab peoples — they have failed utterly to voice what we are doing: preserving Western civilization and its uniquely tolerant and human traditions of freedom, consensual government, disinterested inquiry and religious and political tolerance. . . . We must cease the apologetic tone we have developed with the Arab world, and make it clear that their ministers who hector us are not legitimate without elections, their spokesmen are not journalists without a free press, and their intellectuals are not credible without liberty. The right to admonish Americans on questions of morality is not an entitlement, but something earned only through a shared commitment to constitutional government.”
Lesson #3: Why do so many foreigners reject the evil perpetrators of 9/11 but still dislike America? It’s because, while we have the best system of governance, we are not always at our best in how we act toward the world. Because we want to drive big cars, we support repressive Arab dictators so they will sell us cheap oil. Because our presidents want to get votes, they readily tell the Palestinians how foolishly they are behaving, but they hesitate to tell Israelis how destructive their West Bank settlements are for the future of the Jewish state. Because we want to consume as much energy as we please, we tell the world’s people they have to be with us in the war on terrorism but we don’t have to be with them in the struggle against global warming and for a greener planet.
The point, class, is that while evil people hate us for who we are, many good people dislike us for what we do. And if we want to win their respect we need to be the best, most consistent and most principled global citizens we can be.
Assigned readings: The U.S. Constitution, Woodrow Wilson’s Fourteen Points speech and the Declaration of Independence.
Survey: Europeans Say U.S. Partly to Blame for 9/11
so its not just some brainwashed “madrassa” bred zealots that feel that the US foriegn policy was part of the mix too.
I would not use a string term like 'responsible" or even teh stronger term “justification” here because that is not the intent.
This is just to show that other non-americans and not just the arabs think that the US foriegn policy somehow played a part in this tragedy.
CH nice article
the other importanbt piece is this
*Lesson #3: Why do so many foreigners reject the evil perpetrators of 9/11 but still dislike America? It's because, while we have the best system of governance, we are not always at our best in how we act toward the world. Because we want to drive big cars, we support repressive Arab dictators so they will sell us cheap oil. Because our presidents want to get votes, they readily tell the Palestinians how foolishly they are behaving, but they hesitate to tell Israelis how destructive their West Bank settlements are for the future of the Jewish state. Because we want to consume as much energy as we please, we tell the world's people they have to be with us in the war on terrorism but we don't have to be with them in the struggle against global warming and for a greener planet. *
and the one that is even more important is
*The point, class, is that while evil people hate us for who we are, many good people dislike us for what we do. And if we want to win their respect we need to be the best, most consistent and most principled global citizens we can be. *
so good people who dislike us for what we do, are not the same as the evil ppl who hate us for who we are. But we can not lump these two ppl in the same category, that is unfair. So when ppl talk about US policy it does not mean that they are evil ppl who hate US..I am glad that someone understood that.
I know people who fall in this category and I end up defending US haha and then I end up defending my faith to others..quitr an interesting position to be in as an american muslim :)
oh damn…clinton is to be blamed. I ams ure republicans will have a field day with this. Okay NYA and CH on one side, Old navy err i mean Ex army and Myvoice on the other side. cross fire begins..
That's the point fraudz. there are many reasons to dislike the US. it's foreign policy is one. Like supporting an autocrat in Pakistan and defending Israel at every turn. But it still doesn't justify flying planes into the building. That neuroses has deeper roots.
This neuroses puts the blinders on and says 4000 jews were missing from the WTC.
Fraudia: “Old navy” good one!
Well I am of the thought that at that time, we underestimated the enemy or even didn’t think that they would raise the ante. But just like the japanese and the germans or even the russians they did and now it’s game on.
CH
but at the same time everytime someone who is from the "good guys" is automatically assumed to be, and treated like an "evil guy" someone can lash out.
we have closed minds everywhere, people who have blinders on who will not see this action for what it is, and then there are people with blinders on in US who think that anyone who opposes them or disagrees with them on anything hates them, especially if the person disagreeing or opposing happens to be an arab or a muslim. dang, i even stop bytchin about the traffic congestion :D
But u see my point right...we have to ignore some ppl, we have to educate some people and we have to communicate with some ppl..we can not lump ppl together no race, no religion, no country and no height Itired of hearing desis say that tall ppl have their brain in their ankles...i checked it was not there)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Survey: Europeans Say U.S. Partly to Blame for 9/11
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55% .
My first post on this thread was correct :)