[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
and whats this? not dissing pakistanis?
from time to time u lash out at a pakistani on this forum... what would u say bout that?
[/QUOTE]
I already said what I had to say about 'this'.
CA,
Mystical Miss made that comment and she did say she was generalising..
there are many pakistanis on this forum, ur not the only one. The only difference is, u cant handle any bad word being said about the cutlure.. and a lot of the things stated ARE true, they're exagerated.. but do happen
learn to live with it instead of robbig people of their identity
I know and I wasn’t talking to her. Nadia said that there’s a seed of truth in that statement and that’s what made me upset and reply to her post.
These comments are ‘bad generalizations’ and nothing else! I admit they’re true about some pakis but certainly not all.
when did I rob people off their identity? 
First you guys learn to live with the gross things that other Pakis say about you and then I’ll also learn to live with whatever crap you say about Pakistanis in general.
CA, im trying my best not to say anything to u…
feel free to read ur first post in the following thread and then rephrase ur last comment to me 
(actually check out ur second post too)
thanks
http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145046
Guys - i mean gals, come on yaar… life is too precious to keep arguing about such petty issues, nai? (Sadzzz, i’m going to e-mail you). Come on, yaar, let’s not argue about this. In the grand scheme of everything, it’s a minor issue is it not ? Or at least if we’re going to argue, let’s not be mad at each other! 
Life’s too short to spend it in this manner. Literally.
i don’t want to exacerbate the situation so i really don’t think it is worth the mental energy to keep arguing in this thread. It sounds too bitter to be able to arrive at some compromise. There reaches a point where you accept some things are different, where people are going to perceive you in any way, and it is going to stay that way. Whether we are Pakistanis or Puerto Ricans, there is one identity that supercedes everything - and that is being a Muslim. Hai na? So the Islamic thing to do, is simply to reconcile ourselves to the fact that we are three individual females who think differently. 
Nothing wrong in that. Let’s respect each other’s opinions, and move on.
Come on, go out and smell the flowers both of you. See the miracle in something small. Go for a walk, breathe the fresh air, accept we think differently, and leave it at that. Don’t waste time arguing, yaar, the tone just sounds too bitter in this thread. i don’t think it’s worth it to invest mental energy into this thread, only to keep repeating the same point again and again and God Forbid, come out sounding so bitter and angry.
Come on, guys, we are above all this bitterness.
Aap logon ki dost,
Hippy-Nadia
^ sorry Nadz 
i think i needed chocolate and food.. am all good now
apologies for turning this thread into a battlefield..
How sensetive you people are; getting offended on tini mini issues. Get a skin of Magarmach.
I personaly believe that it is more convenient for non-resident Pakistanis to associate them selves to pakistan and actually Love Pakistan, and be very enthusiastic about it. Because you dont have to experience the hardship of pakistanis living in pakistan. You dont have to pass through many social and cultural evils in pakistan. Injustice and cruelity of every dept in life.
It is hard to love a country where you are robbed at gunpoint and you go to police and realize they already got the share.
I can tolerate the whining from a resident pakistani about these problems. But I can not tolerate someone who is spending his/her vacation in pakistan and bitching about this country and everything he/she sees not to his/her liking.
- Apkey yahaan power fluctuation bohat hai, it never happens in our city*
Bhai, if you dont feel comfortable here then dont visit, Iff you have to visit then shut your mouth.
I love your threads Nadia, sometimes i dont reply but i do read them..
Sadzz, your too cute..
CA, have i told you how much i love your boldness, im impressed.
keep it up.
luv ya’ll… 
Pakistanis are they best. Wherever they are, whoever they are!
but they are also chamchas.. hehe…
ok lets all smile now, and just cool down…
^ some good points in there Code_Red especially about non-resident Pakistanis bitching about Pak 24/7. very annoying indeed.
but I have a question about your other point. you said that it is okay or somewhat understandable if Pakistanis living in Pakistan whine about life in Pakistan etc. I don't understand that. I've seen many people finish off unpleasant encounters/incidents etc by saying "it is Pakistan what else do you expect" or variations of the former. what is that supposed to mean?
so if the policewallah wants 10 rupees to let you get off without a chalaan, how does that becomes "Pakistan's fault"? isn't the policewallah's corrupt workethic to blame in this particular incident? and at a macroscopic level, doesn't every Pakistani share the blame for letting the police think that corruption and bribery are acceptable and just as much part of the judicial system as are courts? I've seen people who go on and on about problems in Pakistan with legal documents and how easy they're to forge etc and how they've been on the receiving end because of such forgery, for example. and these same people turn around and will ask their relatives to get them some fake papers, like a driver's licence. their argument is what they're doing is harmless and everyone else is also doing it. it is this kind of lax attitude of ours that has made corruption (whether petty or not) not only acceptable but even made it an institution of sorts in Pakistan.
from what I understand Pakistan is just a land, it was an idea, a concept. one that has been mutilated and hijacked by many people (army, fundos, politicians etc) during the course of Pakistan's history. but regardless of that I fail to see how every man-made (or Pakistani-made to be specific) problem faced by a Pakistani is Pakistan's fault instead of his own or his fellow Pakistanis fault. one could dismiss this as just a case of semantics but it's really begun to bother me lately. I wonder if anyone else feels the same way?
now, lemme say that I also did something similar once on these very forums. needless to say I feel miserable about the implications that I made about Pakistan in there and I think I apologized for it too. if I didn't then, I apologize now.
[QUOTE]
so if the policewallah wants 10 rupees to let you get off without a chalaan, how does that becomes "Pakistan's fault"? isn't the policewallah's corrupt workethic to blame in this particular incident? and at a macroscopic level, doesn't every Pakistani share the blame for letting the police think that corruption and bribery are acceptable and just as much part of the judicial system as are courts? I've seen people who go on and on about problems in Pakistan with legal documents and how easy they're to forge etc and how they've been on the receiving end because of such forgery, for example. and these same people turn around and will ask their relatives to get them some fake papers, like a driver's licence. their argument is what they're doing is harmless and everyone else is also doing it. it is this kind of lax attitude of ours that has made corruption (whether petty or not) not only acceptable but even made it an institution of sorts in Pakistan.
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Curruption, is a realitiy in third world countries in particular, and I am afraid it is going to stay. We can reduce it to some extant if we can increase Per capita income ; in other words decrease poverty.
To give to an example how corruption is successfully reduced.
Normal Police vs Highway(Motorway) police
Normal police in pakistan is totally corrupt(with rare exception). The main reasons
- Low pays
- Long duty hours 3 More powers with less accountability
On the other hand Highway police is Not currupt at all. And thus praised and respected by citizen. They are well behaved and very helpful to normal people and treat people regardless of thier status.
When the above mentioned issues were addressed properly, curruption eliminated.
Few people are corrupt by nature and mostly they are rich.I Believe if we are able to minus the poverty and injustic from society, Pakistanis are least corrupt at the level of masses.
This thread isn't about criticizing Pakistan. For the love of God, please try to see what i wrote in my original post. It is about what qualities exist in the culture that don't exist in other cultures - i wrote shyness, respect for elders, etc and was trying to see how those 'fit in' into our culture. Other cultures, like some Oriental ones, also have the same traits.
If i wanted to open a thread about criticizing Pakistan, then that's what this thread's title would have been "Let's criticize Pakistan". On the contrary, this is about what traits we define as being part of Pakistani culture. For the last time, everyone, please understand - i didn't open this thread to criticize Pakistan.
sheesh kababs.
Shyness, respect for elders is far more prevalent in East asia than it was ever in South Asia. Meanwhile, humility and self respect is an entirely American phenomenon like hard work.
sorry Nadia, I went off-topic. By my post I didn't mean to imply that you opened this thread for criticizing Pakistan. I just posted about something that I found interesting wrt to Code_red's post - though in the wrong thread.
Sambrialian, No, please don’t apologize. You did nothing wrong whatsoever, so there is no need to apologize. Please don’t
i just hate arguments You and Code Red are having a wonderful discussion, please continue it by all means if you want to in this thread. i just wanted to ensure that no one who was reading this second page, would accidentally think that i intended to open a thread simply to bash Pakistan.
Maybe, if we could all just realize that… two of Allah’s Names are Al Basir and Al Alim (The All Seeing and All Knowing). i don’t know why there seems to be a tendency to classify people into “Pakistan haters” or lovers ecetera. It just doesn’t make sense to me. One day, we will all be judged by Allah. Why can’t we just leave the judging upto Him. No one could do a better job than Him, so why do we waste so much time on earth squabbling over such petty issues (at least, they seem petty to me).
Khair You should know how much i respect your opinions. If my silly thread can be of any use in your’s and CR’s discussion, then i hope the discussion continues Insha’Allah.
The sense of pakistaniyat is confined to Punjab and Karachi only, if anything like pakistaniyat exists at all. In the rest of Pakistan your tribe or ethnicity is your identification. You'll hardly hear a Pashtun or Baloch shouting Pakistan Zianda bad.
Code_Red, samb, very good points, totally agree with you guys. :k:
Nadia,
I’m sorry for turning your topic into something else. It was not my intention but trust me, if I didn’t reply in this thread, it would be on it’s 3rd-4th page of Pakistan/Pakistani bashing. Anyways, I hope from now on we will all(including myself) will judge people on individual merits and not generalize.
MM
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by shawaiz: *
The sense of pakistaniyat is confined to Punjab and Karachi only, if anything like pakistaniyat exists at all. In the rest of Pakistan your tribe or ethnicity is your identification. You'll hardly hear a Pashtun or Baloch shouting Pakistan Zianda bad.
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maybe then they should get the hell out of Pakistan? that would be the principled thing to do. they can maybe join Afghanistan perhaps since that's what they seem to pine for. this way they can be closer to the culture they value more than their country. they'll also be able to enjoy all the wonderful fruits of Afghanistan such as the Taliban, the daisycutters and everything in between.
sorry again Nadia. but I can't stand these Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis or whoever else who value their silly provinicial games over the national identity that binds us all.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Code_Red: *
**Curruption, is a realitiy in third world countries **in particular, and I am afraid it is going to stay. We can reduce it to some extant if we can increase Per capita income; in other words decrease poverty.
[/QUOTE]
so, it is. the solution you mentioned obviously works but what if there aren't resources to implement this kind of logical solution as has been stated by police bigwigs in many media events.
one of the main reasons why a policeman is bold enough to ask a person for a bribe is because he knows he's going to get it. we would rather put 10 rupees in the policeman's pocket than a 100 rupees into the government's treasury. (all these numbers are hypothetical, I haven't been chalaaned myself but I have been ask to pay a bribe which I didn't).
now instead of meekly giving in and saying to hell with it, if we collectively say "ok boy, bring it on. give me the chalaan." so what if you get slapped with a bigger fine but two things, 1) you can fight a chalaan if it is unjust which likely it will be. 2) if the chalaan is just, the money is going to the government or some form of administration and not to some corrupt individual. sooner or later policemen will get the message.
I'm not saying that this is an easy solution or even a fair one from an underpaid and overworked policeman's point of view as you mentioned but instead of always saying that the government should do this or that, we also have a responsibility to ourselves and our society. and we can bring change by ourselves. it's easy to always find other people to blame (which might be well justified too in some cases), but a better alternative would be to come up with a constructive solution instead.
once this kind of mentality becomes mainstream and people start taking responsibility for their surroundings, our society will and can change rapidly. we stop paying bribes and refuse to accept it as part of the Pakistani system, the effects will eventually resonate all the way to the top and slowly accountability will come.
I know I'm rambling but whatever...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Code_Red: *
I can tolerate the whining from a resident pakistani about these problems. But I can not tolerate someone who is spending his/her vacation in pakistan and bitching about this country and everything he/she sees not to his/her liking.
[/QUOTE]
You may see it as bitching and whining but that isn't necessarily the case. I'm talking about threads that have been opened on GS in the past. If anything, many of those threads are opened to try and understand our culture and certain customs that are being practiced by Pakistanis all over the world, outside of Pakistan.
People bitch because perhaps it hurts them to see their fellow Pakistanis behaving in a certain way or even possibly suffering when that need not be the case. They want to talk about it and understand why it's happening and possible alternatives so that WE don't repeat the same mistakes in our lives.
Discussing something, its problems, its effects, etc. does not equate to bashing Pakistan. If anything, it's trying to understand it.
^ agree
the sooner we distinguish between bashing and understanding, the better it will be
b/w Pakistanis who live outside of Pakistan have just as much rigth talking about their culture. Just cus we're living in a different environment, doesnt make us any less cultured.. just a lil different..