Who says this is our war?

Its not our war & it never was. The American lackey generals in GHQ along with Mushrraf who are getting billions of $$ for service & sacrificing our jawans for war that is not ours have turned our country into war zone. They should be held accountable for their treasonous crimes. :frowning:

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=103416

Who says this is our war?
Islamabad diary

Friday, March 28, 2008
Ayaz Amir

It isn’t and never was and if our newly-inducted political leadership is dumb enough to swallow all the fiction about the so-called ‘war on terror’ that our American friends (friends?) seem keen to push down its throat, God help us.

This is George Bush’s war. This is the war, or a front in the war, orchestrated by those strategic crazies going by the name of neocons, the same geniuses who wanted to reshape the world – beginning with the reshaping of the Middle East – and gave their own people, the American people, two un-winnable wars: in Iraq and, wait for it, Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was supposed to be the more ‘doable’ affair, the one they thought they had wrapped up in 2001. But it is proving as tough and intractable as Iraq, with the Taliban, alas, not finished and the war, far from being over, stretching into the remote distance.

This is not even America’s war because most Americans who care to have an opinion about their country’s foreign policy – and there are millions of Americans who don’t give a damn, this section of the American population having a hard time deciphering a map of the world – are opposed to Bush’s adventure in Iraq. And although Afghanistan doesn’t loom as large across American radar screens as Iraq, it is beginning to assume a larger presence.

Indeed, the one thing saving American and NATO forces from utter disaster in Afghanistan is the Pakistan army on this side of the Durand Line. This is the buttress shoring up the American position and that is why, with new winds blowing across Islamabad, our friends in Washington are alarmed.

Their policy towards Pakistan was shaped around one man: their favourite general, Pervez Musharraf. And now that after the recently-concluded elections his position has crumbled, and is visibly diminishing by the day, the war party in Washington is worried that Pakistan may not be as zealous as it has been in taking American orders in the ‘war on terror’.

Small wonder John Negroponte, deputy secretary of state and holder of many dark secrets about American policy in Latin America, and Richard Boucher, assistant secretary of state and a familiar face in Pakistan, were so quick to descend on Islamabad, basically wanting to get a feel about the new guys about to enter the corridors of power.

Despite what some of the headlines have been suggesting Negroponte and Boucher shouldn’t be too worried because while the new guys may have waxed eloquent about ‘parliamentary sovereignty’ – very much the new buzzword in Islamabad – no one has suggested that Pakistan is about to cut its strings with America or is about to change course dramatically.

Pakistan is hardly in a position for a radical shift all at once because the Americans are all over the place and there are so many things tying us to America that a sudden application of the scissors is simply out of the question.

Let’s not forget that the army is the key player in this equation and any rethinking of the American alliance will have to come as much from General Headquarters as from the new National Assembly. Would the army like to forego American military assistance, the five-year ‘aid’ package which has enabled it to go on an extended arms’ shopping spree? Would it like to forego the nearly hundred million dollars a month it gets for services rendered in the ‘war on terror’? Where does this money go? Does anyone even know?

Such ‘aid’ once you are hooked on it becomes an addiction. Vested interests develop and lifestyles come to depend upon this bonanza. Overcoming such an addiction is not easy.

Islamabad is a town of dealers, fixers and commission agents anyway: well-off parasites living off the inflow of American dollars. Any talk of cutting the American connection and this razzle-dazzle crowd will point accusing fingers at the new guys in town and say that they are acting ‘irresponsibly’. Deep pockets after all are not easy to fight.

Let’s not also forget that parliamentary sovereignty in this country is a bit of a fiction. We may like to think parliament is a sovereign institution but when was the last time parliament took a sovereign decision?

All our great foreign policy adventures, our various jihads and wars, never had anything to do with parliamentary debate or approval. We must rethink our American connection, and as a result of that connection the sentry and bag duty our army performs along the Afghan frontier, but for anything to come of this exercise the rethink has to be a joint undertaking between the army command and the new guys in town (actually all old guys but making a reappearance on the national scene after the extended disaster of the Musharraf years… indeed after Musharraf anything, even recycled stuff, would look new).

Unless the army command is re-educated, unless it gets rid of the strategic and war-on-terror-related nonsense which under American tutelage has become part of its collective thinking, Pakistan will know neither peace nor harmony.

Yes, there are elements in Pakistani society keen on turning the clock back, who believe passionately that the way to go forward is to return to biblical times (biblical here a metaphor for their overdrawn simplicities about the fundamentals of life). Yes, there are elements in the tribal areas who think that it is their holy duty to come to the aid of the Taliban, or anyone fighting the Americans, in Afghanistan.

We should be discouraging such elements, interdicting their movement across the border. On no account must Waziristan, north and south, become a Taliban sanctuary, a staging post for the anti-American resistance. But we shouldn’t let the Americans tell us how to go about this business. Because there is a whole history of American interference—from Vietnam and Cambodia to Iraq and Afghanistan – which testifies to that great American talent for touching a problem and turning it into a first-rate catastrophe.

Let the Taliban fight their own wars. By the same token let the Americans also fight their wars. We should have nothing to do with either of these undertakings. The Lord knows we have enough of our problems of our own to settle.

Musharraf was America’s loyal ally, Pakistan’s Ngo Din Diem and Pinochet rolled into one, and because he acted under American orders and in his zeal to please his American protectors paid no heed to the sentiments of his own people, this whole terrorism business, far from being squashed, has ballooned out of control. A problem (or call it a virus) confined to the tribal areas has spread to other parts of Pakistan. There were no suicide bombings in 2001. Now it is a phenomenon we are all familiar with.

This entire strategy, if one can dignify it thus, has backfired. Pakistan is now in the crosshairs of terrorism precisely because Musharraf hitched his wagon, and the nation’s, to Bush’s failed and imploding star. Across the globe, and this includes America, Bush is considered little better than a moron. And to think that because of one man – Musharraf –

Pakistan and its army have been tied to the apron strings of this moron.

We don’t need to court American hostility. We should be friends with America but not its lackey or satellite. We should learn to live without the high of American ‘assistance’. At any rate, it is the parasitic classes who have benefited the most from this assistance, not the majority of the Pakistani people. So what are we talking or complaining about?

If terrorism has to be fought we must do it on our own. The Americans, as we have seen, will make the problem worse. Thus the first condition of fighting terrorism is getting rid of American advice and assistance. The Frontier Corps doesn’t need to be recast by the Americans (as they propose to do). Is the new Iraqi army any better for being outfitted by the Americans?

There is even – and this is really silly – a USAID programme for the ‘capacity-building’ of MNAs and MPAs. As part of this programme there is a ‘capacity-enhancing’ centre (with newspapers and computers, etc.) right in the Parliamentary Lodges in Islamabad. Madam Speaker, your urgent attention please.) Goes to show how busy our American friends have been, and what unlikely corners they have penetrated, these past seven years.

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Re: Who says this is our war?

This is war, we will be participating in, even when we are not fighting it. Not taking actions against millitants = supporting their cause. sooner or later we face their music.

Re: Who says this is our war?

With Pakistan becoming a hub for global terrorism. It is in Pakistan's interest to root this evil of terrorism from its country. It is a Pakistan War.

Re: Who says this is our war?

This article is right about a few things but utterly dishonest in saying it is not Pakistan's war. It conveniently glosses over the cause of the war, the events that caused it in the first place.

I hate to have to dredge the past but sometimes. But by this sort of 'summary' rewrites, the principals themselves sometimes forget how they got their and then history repeats itself. Therefore to recollect:

USA either overtly or covertly hired Pakistani help in recruiting, organizing and fighting the Russians in Afghanistan

Pakistan was also using some or lot of these funds to launch and sustain the cross-border jihad in J&K

When the Russians left, Pakistan, with a "deep strategic involvement" idea was working closely with the Taleban regime in Afghanistan

When 9/11 occurred and the role of Taleban was surfaced to general public, it also was revealed that Pakistan was being used as the conduit by al qaeda for funds, logistics, recruitment and training

....That is why I think it is very much Pakistan's war.

Re: Who says this is our war?

Ayaz Amir has lost it. Totally this time. Him and Hameed Gul would surely lead Pakistan into the abyss that is so similar to Somalia and Afghanistan.

This Ayaz guy fails to note that hundreds of Qaida members captured and killed in Pakistan were not here to do picnic.

Never forget the terror inflicted on Pakistani masses by the terrorists.

He says Americans failed in Afghanistan. The reason they have failing because Pakistanis don't and won't respect their own border with Afghanistan.

Instead of laughing at Americans and NATO, we should thank Pak army that by sacrificing their lives, they have saved the whole FATA area from carpet bombing and daisy cutters.

Once daisy cutter at Darra would have made all the Khans sit with Americans and make direct deals. I mean that's what Afghanis did. They took money from Americans.

However these direct deals would have destroyed Pakistan as a country. Then surely FATA would be totally independent.

We should learn from the examples of Columbia-Panama and avoid these Anti-NATO rehtoric. Otherwise they will buy the FATAns directly, and believe you me, if FATAns could sell their homes to Arabs for the right price, they would do so in an instant with Americans too.

Indians are already selling their soldiers to Americans. The day Pak army runs away from FATA (by this so called re-education by the likes of Ayaz), Indians, Turks, French, and Russians would love to "support" NATO's control in FATA.

Then Ayaz guys will sit and cry that big bad Americans took away portions of his country. Well if you don't and can't control your territory, then someone else will.

Re: Who says this is our war?

substantiate that

Re: Who says this is our war?

There are many examples of India offering its military resources for US’s war outsourcing. Where have you have been all these years.

However this is not the thread about Indian soldiers. It is about Pakistanis refusing to see the Jihadi danger and it is the Pakistanis who are doing Jihadi’s napaak work by maligning their own army.

FYI. Just today’s news that Indian soldiers are disappearing in the USA. Joint training with USA? or getting the Indian soldiers ready to serve Americans?

2 jawans disappear after joint exercise
http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/29/stories/2008032955941300.htm
Special Correspondent
NEW DELHI: Two Indian soldiers who disappeared at the end of a joint exercise in the U.S. have been declared “absent without leave.” They will be declared deserters if they do not turn themselves in after 30 days, said sources at the Army Headquarters here.

The soldiers had left the U.S. army base in California on March 20 but the Army’s admission came after a report to this effect appeared on Friday. The men from the 1/1 Gorkha battalion were part of a 100-plus Army contingent that went to the U.S. on March 8 to participate in “Exercise Shatrujeet.”

Re: Who says this is our war?

Show me one example of India ‘selling’ soldiers to USA which is the deregatory statement you made.

Conducting joint exercises, ‘offering’ military resources and two jawans missing do not constitute ‘selling’ jawans.

Re: Who says this is our war?

Stir! India and other countries (including Pakistan) sell their services and people all the time. Since when is this a "derogatory term"?

The whole outsourcing industry is selling the techies.

Man o man, people do get touchy some times!

Re: Who says this is our war?

Burqa - selling goods and services is different from saying 'selling soldiers'. but if you didn't mean to be derogatory, nomore need be said. Similary, techies are not for sale - their techie services are, just like any other labor.

Moving fwd, I know India has provided soldiers to UN peace keeping forces. Haven't come across when India provided that to the USA. Iraq and Afghanistan, when USA requested, I think India said no.

Re: Who says this is our war?

It was our war when Musharraf killed our own people. When the Pakistani Military handed over 7 innocent people to the US, who were tortured for 3 years and then released because the US government found them to be innocent.

We have sent according to the NYT and Washington Post over 300 Al Qaeda of which only 7 to 10 are in Gitmo. The rest have been released over time as they weren't terrorists.

Sadly though its easier to sit on the US and order the killing of innocent people than it is to grow a mind and think independently of the US media for some "Pakistanis".

Re: Who says this is our war?

It was our war when Musharraf killed our own people. When the Pakistani Military handed over 7 innocent people to the US, who were tortured for 3 years and then released because the US government found them to be innocent.

We have sent according to the NYT and Washington Post over 300 Al Qaeda of which only 7 to 10 are in Gitmo. The rest have been released over time as they weren't terrorists.

Sadly though its easier to sit on the US and order the killing of innocent people than it is to grow a mind and think independently of the US media for some "Pakistanis".

Re: Who says this is our war?

President Musharraf and most in Army says that it is our war, HRH King of Pakistan Zardari says that it is out war, HRH Queen of Pakistan BeNazir used to say that it is our war, Sarhadi Jawan Asfand Yar Wali says that it is our war, most intelligent Pakistanis say that it is our war. I have feeling that HRH Prince of Pakistan Bilawal Zardari believes the same that this is Pakistani war. The difference is that, all say that it is not 'war against terror' but 'war against criminals of misguided religious cult' or 'war against extremists'

Those who says that this is not our war are corrupt chailay-chamchay of like Qazi and Imran who talk big about religion but have their knowledge of religion below their heel, some misguided amongst masses, sold journalists working on haddi, and self-believing so-called religious Jesters like Hamid Mir, Hameed Gul and like them who do not have beard on their face .

Re: Who says this is our war?

I don't know how anybody can claim it is not Pakistan's war when Pakistanis are holding the gun from both sides.

Re: Who says this is our war?

No, we're fighting American war & people getting killed are Pakistanis on both sides of the conflict.

Re: Who says this is our war?

^ it is also America's war, but as much Pakistan's war. Failure to curb jihadi elements within Pakistan's borders (= training camps, ISI support, funds) is what caused 9/11 right?

Ofcourse the so called 'war' has morphed into a lot of things - into a clash of civilizations in some people's minds - due to the stupidity of dubya and company.

Re: Who says this is our war?

There is diff. between Taliban and Al-quida. Taliban are local people mostly Pashtoons on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan border. They’re fighting against foreign occupation, and fact that Pakistan is getting billions of $$ for it service they think we’re supporting American agenda in the region, and killing our own people.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0330/breaking11.htm

Taliban make overtures to Gilani

The Pakistani Taliban today welcomed the new government’s readiness to negotiate an end to the spreading conflict in the country but vowed to carry on fighting American forces in neighbouring Afghanistan.

Speaking at a gathering a several thousand tribesmen in the Bajaur region attended by Muslim clerics and militant leaders, Maulvi Omar of the Tehrik-e-Taliban said “all kinds of co-operation” would be extended to the government.

After winning a vote of confidence in the National Assembly yesterday, Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani said his government would talk to anyone ready to lay down arms to resolve problems afflicting tribal areas which have been a hotbed of Islamic militancy.

The government of Pervez Musharraf backed by the US were aggressive in pursuing militants in the area. Washington believes al Qaeda operates in areas of Pakistan which borders Afghanistan and that Osam bin Laden is hiding in teh region.

A wave of violence, including scores of suicide attacks unleashed over the past nine months, has been largely blamed on al Qaeda-inspired militant groups operating from tribal areas such as Waziristan and Bajaur.

Nearly 600 people have been killed in the last three months, as the militants intensified a campaign to destabilise Mr Musharraf.

Mr Omar, whose Tehrik-e-Taliban is an umbrella organisation for militant groups based in Pakistani tribal areas, said talks could be possible if Mr Musharraf’s policies were ditched.

The Waziristan-based chief of the Pakistani Taliban, Baitullah Mehsud did not attend today’s meeting but his deputy, Maulvi Faqir, told followers: “We have no opposition to talks but the government has to ensure a complete ceasefire.”

Re: Who says this is our war?

Shamraz Khan Saheb ...
Do you think that a country should have control over their borders, land and people or not?
Do you think that a country should have control or say on if their land should be used by people to wage war in other countries or not?
Do you think that anyone breaking the laws of the country should be punished or not and if they take up arms against the State than State should use all means to suppress these Criminals or not?

If your answer to above questions is YES then what Pakistan doing is fighting war of Pakistan in Pakistan and if not than Pakistan is not a Country but Jungle where anyone can have their own laws and can do whatever they like to others.

I and I believe that no one in their right mind would consider that to have control of own country by government and to not let the country used for war in other countries (like some Pakistanis and Afghans are doing, using Pakistani land to fight war in Afghanistan) is other people's war. Actually, not to stop these people using Pakistani land to wage war in Afghanistan is letting these people use Pakistan to fight other people's (Afghanistani) war.

On the other hand, what was happening in Islamabad (Madrasa-e-Hafsa), what was happening in Swat, what is happening at many part of Pakistan, all that was/is not war but stopping criminals from their continuous breaking Pakistani laws and harassing Pakistani peaceful citizen and at instance using violence against Pakistani citizen, so such actions cannot be called anyone's else war but it is war of Pakistan against Crime and Criminals.

What you think, please tell us why you think that what I mentioned above is not Pakistani war?

Re: Who says this is our war?

I agree that Taleban and Al Qaeda are not the same organization but that doesn't change anything in this discussion. Taleban is what enabled al quaeda. Wasn't Mullah Omar Taleban? As long as Pakistan is involved, whether it be directly supporting al qaeda, taleban or anyother group(s) of jihadis it will be Pakistan's war. The very fact that the taleban guy in your above post 'extends' a welcome to the new PM and asks for ceasefire, should tell us where the was has been until 24 hours ago.

IMO the only reason the Pakistan govt was not able to completely overwhelm the terrorists in ALL parts of the country and in the borders is because the military itself had very strong links with the other side.

Re: Who says this is our war?


What has government done to protect borders? Other than some target-bombing by drones (controlled by someone else). Knowing how many people including terrorists come and go unchecked, what has govt achieved in security after all these years of fighting/war?