faceup,
I asked for one topic at a time. You pasted an essay which would outweigh a set of encyclopaedias.
If there is one point from that list (which I didn't bother reading) maybe you could start a new thread and we'll discuss it there. i.e chopping hands.
Just one at a time pls.
OffdaChain, Salafi,
You are over-reacting! Pls calm down; we all believe in the Final Revelation. It's how we practise it that driving us apart.
Let's ponder this: There is irrefutable proof that the Shariat places too much emphasis on the Sunnah/hadiths when it should be the Quran.
1)Can you corroborate any of the sunnahs, in those EXACT words, with the Quran?
2)Is Quran the word of God or the Sunnah?
3)If Allah wanted us to COPY exactly the Prophet's (s)'way of life' as practised by him in each & every century for all eternity then, what is the need for the Quran? We can just emulate the Prophet in words & deed and there would be no need for the Quran!
4)The Prophet(s) lived in the 7th century where conditions were harsh and men were 'Wild'. What the prophet said & did was a reaction of that 'Wild environment' that existed at 'that time'. This is why, you - Salafi, say the following:
"Did the Messenger(saw) practice the Mercy and Compassion, which you are talking about?"
This saying of yours is a Gem! The Prophet practised the compassion that REFLECTED his Time & Place. What was acceptable in the 7th century is NOT acceptable in the 21st century!
Thank you faceup,
First we seek refuge in Allah from these ignorant statements. Secondly, now you've uttered them, we can really expose you and the modernists. Insha'Allah we'll show you the status of sunnah in Islam from the Qur'an, what is the status of the Messenger(saw), whether the sunnah is for a limited period or eternity. We'll explain this to you and much more from the Qur'an stage by stage.
All in good time.
just something for you to ponder over in the mean time. you said:>>men were 'Wild'. What the prophet said & did was a reaction of that 'Wild environment'<<
as you will see soon, this is irrevelant. secondly, your statement could not be further from the truth. Yes pagan arabs were wild at the time, but neither are the unbelievers today, nor many from amongst the muslims. Remember the statistics on rape and crime in America, and how they treat the woman as a sex object. Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, Burma, you get the gist. How the clonialists occupied and overran the lands simply for worldly materials. Know the number killings that take place in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh simply for pride & honour, then this enmity continues for generations.
Many more I will skip over for now.
Anyway, thanks again,
Till we meet again, Ciao.
Salafi,
Lest you forget and the discussion goes off the tangent, the point that is being made is:SHARIAT IS MOSTLY BASED ON THE SUNNAH! And, since the Sunnah refelcts 7th century all the Sharia'h laws REFLECT 7th century.
As point of emphasis or to prove my point, could you corroborate the hadiths that were quoted here with the Quran? In exactly those words & meanings!
NOTE: If Islam does not adhere to the principles of Reason, then it will not survive!
The guidance should come from the Quran in forms of interpretations that reflects Time & Place. The ahadiths/Sunnah are points of reference Only for the reason mentioned above that the Sunnah reflects the life of our Prophet(s) in the 7th century only.
Good work Face-up even Salafi is talking without hurling abuses and name calling.
PS 1: offthechain you are offdatrack along with salafi. These are few golden fatwas I just excerpted from page one, they are not my verdicts. Before letter your opinions, why don’t you guys go thorough the topic first.
PS 2: salafi; I am not a munkir of Hadiths or Quran; in fact whatever Holy Prophet(saw) has spoken aside Quran, I believe these are also the words of Allah, as He(saw) was a messenger sent by Allah, and whatever He(saw) has said is not from himself or outside his guidance…… Unlike the Quran, they were preserved sometimes later after His(saw) demise. There is a chance that some of his sayings are invested by personal interferences…. Beside all that I not only believe in Sahihs of Muslim and Bukhari but also all the saha’sitahs. Got it? Now don’t accuse me next time on these issues.
PS 3: salafi, now its your turn. Show us the verses that Muslims truly follows
PS 4: I agree with you faceup.
For a further discussion of this topic, especially regarding the application & status of Sunnah, please see the new thread
THE STATUS OF SUNNAH IN ISLAAM
Face up, you do have a point. Somewhere, there is something shaking the infrastructure of Islamic-laws, and it's practicality...I have learnt a great deal from these discussions, even though I don't like your approach...
In times of the Holy Prophet, Muhammad(SAW), the mushriqeen were so away from GOD that drastic measures were eminent. But you are mixing this with that...
You didn't HAVE to use such heading for QURAN...
You didn't HAVE to discuss the Messenger(SAW)...
You didn't HAVE to insult ALL Muslims for you point...
You are forgetting the very reason of HUMANS existing on earth. Humans are NOT perfect...
Islamic laws through Fiqh, and Fatwa are the FURTHEST issues from GOD, MUHAMMAD(SAW); the Messengar who literally went through a BLOOD_BATH in Taif,For the sake of people finding the right path...one GESTURE and the city of Taif would have been turned upside down...He (SAW) forgives...
Who are you, with a mere trash-bag, some knowledge of Shariah, proving nothing but your own ignorance over and over and over and over...
Do you want to be right...then what...I do agree with you on some issues about Islam entering the new age...Ahadith are our guidance, we have to use Fiqh, and Fatwa as tools to get into the future...As knowledgeable you are or you pretend to be...why don't you get more education in this field and be able to fix it where it needs to be fixed...
You are talking to the people who work day & night to provide bread for their families abroad and backhome...a form of Jihad...
DONOT come out insulting and dragging ISLAM in the mud...DONOT copy apart of my post and try to give me a smart answer...read it ALL, because a part of doesn't mean anything without theWHOLE...exactly how you are disecting the Shariah...
BlaDaMunda,
You'll have to read: THE STATUS OF SUNNAH IN ISLAM to understand that I am not trashing anything or anybody - the Quran, The Prophet (s) or Islam. In the heat of discussion - things get said that are not intended. I do recognise that this is an area I need to work on.
Things that I speak of are NOT taught in Madrasas or by Mullahs.They will call my opinions kufr anyways. Big Deal!
My thoughts & opinions are a result of studing the many school of thoughts that make up Islam. I do not claim to know all but I know quite a bit and can withstand the debate 'alone' in the interest of Compassion & Tolerance.
...and...
It seems to me that faceup is NOT what we call Ahmadi/Qadiani etc....
from reading his posts i believe he may be a follower of " Rashad Khalifa " or belongs to the Pervaizi group...both of whom deny the Sunnah and Hadith....
Pukka Desi!
that makes sense to me!
Let faceup tell us by himself
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by Shaheen (edited July 18, 2000).]
Here is Pukka calling me a Sufi while Sufimaster, who doesn't know squat about sufism, is calling me an ahmedia, while Bahykatr is accusing me of stirring up shia-sunni rift.
What is is going to be tomorrow?
Rashad Khalifa was correct re Sunnah being 'all corrupted' and should not be the basis of Islamic laws. He emphasized that Quran is the word of God and should be the source of divine guidance.
In the end, however, he realized that without "Religious Authority" - Quran is a book of parables unitelligible to most; so, he ended up proclaiming himself a messenger(not a Prophet) or a religious authority, similar to what the founder of Ahmediat claimed for himself. Pukka,Shaheen - this has the making of a good discussion!
parda uth-ta hai...
"so faceup is really a follwer of Rashad Khalifa...."
Anyway from his writing about the power of "19" it seems Khalifa was a good mathmatician who went too deep to prove his theory...and in the end started believing he was himself a "rasul"...yes sir he claimed prophethood and not what u attribute to him
Pukka - yaar,
There are many, many groups that share 'similar' opinions to Dr. Rashad Khalifa on the sunnah. Does that make them all his followers?
Could you show me where Dr. Rashad claiming to be a Prophet? He was claiming, like the leader of Ahmediat, to be a messenger or a Religious Authority.
The Quran is clear that EVERY PROPHET (NABI) IS A MESSENGER (RASOUL) BUT NOT EVERY MESSENGER IS A PROPHET.
The Quran is full of mention of 'Religious Authority'. After all, without Religious Authority the Quran is a book of fancy words which most cannot comprehand. And, this Religious Authority gets his authority from the Quran.
I must say this is a very interesting conversation.
Salafi might call me “modernist” but isn’t Islam supposed to be a Modern religion. Its believes were cutting edge in the 7th century and they still are. Islam was, is and will remain the most progressive, adaptive, modernizing and revolutionary religion. The sharia was indeed formulated in the 7th century but it doesn’t mean it was written in stone that is why the facility of Ijtihad was provided to us, because it was foreseen that the Ummah will face lots of issues and will come across situations that were not faced or present in our Prophet’s (mpbuh) time.
Quran, though is very clear in and about certain subjects than other, it holds secrets and revelations that are still to be deciphered and more so discovered as the world and this “mankind” evolves thus bringing out Islam as the first and foremost unifying, true and final religion and Holy Quran as The Living Miracle. Holy Quran is an instruction manual, a point of reference for Muslims for how to conduct their lives, Islam is and was considered modern because it gave the follower the power to decide on right and wrong by providing them the guidelines to follow, then the decision was left up the person whether to follow or not. In both cases (which paths to follow) the gifts and punishments were also pointed out, but the eventual decision was left for the person to make testing his or her faith with the final promise of absolution and a place in heaven.
We have to be cordial and patient to everyone whether they agree or disagree with our point of view. They have that right given to them Allah too just like everyone else. Name-calling has been always been look down upon by our Maker his beloved Messenger (mpbuh) and in his book. Allah at numerous occasions has pointed out the importance of the rights of your fellow man, Hakook-al-ebaad (I do apologize if I misspelled it or any for that matter), and how that is one thing that we have to be very weary of. For, Allah will forgive transgressions that we commit against him but he will not overlook the transgressions we commit against our fellow human beings and more importantly our Muslim brothers and sisters, no matter what fiqah they follow or what sect they belong to.