Who is better - Rashid Latif OR Moin Khan - and why ?

[quote]
Originally posted by Nakhrey Wali:
Moin has a edge in one day batting even then i'll stick to Rashid is better WK than Moin even in oneday.
[/quote]

Who told you that Rashid has a better ODI WK record than Moin ? Yeh lo unke record :-



ODIS                 Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St   (Avg. Dismissal per match)

RASHID LATIF         129  1201  79   19.06   0   3   -   -       -    - 133 32     1.27
MOIN KHAN            190  2853  69*  23.00   0   9   -   -       -    - 191 66     1.35


If you look closly at Rashid's batting avg - It is mainly because of his avg against Bangladesh. His avg against South Africa is 7.81. Look at the no. of 50s moin has scored (3 times more than Rashid, with only 1.5 times more matches played.)
Unlike Rashid's Most of Moin's run have come when badly needed.


AK

[quote]
Originally posted by Asif_k:
*Loyalty to the Team - Not at all, even supported Waqar's suspension for ball tempering, has been responsible for ruining career of Basit Ali for personal gains. Has accused almost every senior player in the current team of Match fixing.
*

[/quote]

Asif if you are not totally aware of all the history of this saga it is better that you not make stuff up. Rashid did not ruin Basit's career, Wasim did. This is the difference between Imran and Wasim. Imran gave and gave to Pakistan cricket. Wasim gave a lot but took some too. He screwed Miandad, Rashid Latif, Aamir Sohail, Basit Ali, Aaqib Javed, and lately and ironically Waqar Younis. I hope you believe me on this one. You can ask any Pakistani guppy to confirm this, I assure you that they will at least agree with the part that Rashid did not have anything to do with Basit's problems.

Now, I'd much rather get into match fixing again but since you have made loyalty to the team a criterion, I guess I have to. I ask you what is more important loyalty to the team or loyalty to the nation that you're representing. If I were to ever select players based on honesty and integrity, Latif's name would be penned down before all. The entire cricketing world owes a debt to Rashid for exposing the ring of match fixing.

And now please don't say that there was no match fixing. Just in another thread you called Wasim a match fixing player which I personally will not disagree with. If you can call Wasim a match fixer without any proof or contact why can't Rashid when he has seen every move of Wasim's for the years he has kept for him?

About the point where he claimed that our bowlers do tamper with the ball, I think it was a comment out of frustration rather anything else. You may choose to believe otherwise. However, from Latif's point of view after you have been out of the team for years even though you were kicked out for the wrong reasons, it is only natural to get frustrated and try to get back at your former colleagues. I don't think it was right but he did it.

[quote]
Originally posted by Asif_k:
**MOIN KHAN :-

WK in ODI - At PAR
WK in TESTS - Not Better
Batting in ODI - Better
Batting in Test - Better
Loyalty to the Team - Very Loyal
Performance in ODIs - Very Good
Performance in Tests- Very Good
Match Winner - Yes, both with his batting and Wicket keeping as well, has proved it many times with his batting

RASHID LATIF :-

WK in ODI - At PAR
WK in TESTS - Better
Batting in ODI - Poor (Not better at all, recent example Pak-SL match couldn't make 12 runs in 4 overs)
Batting in Test - Not Better
Loyalty to the Team - Not at all, even supported Waqar's suspension for ball tempering, has been responsible for ruining career of Basit Ali for personal gains. Has accused almost every senior player in the current team of Match fixing.
Performance in ODIs - Good
Performance in Tests- Good
Match Winner - Not with his batting at least

My Choice - MOIN KHAN any day.

Prove me If I am wrong (Yeah and I am not using stats)

**
[/quote]

I agree with the stats above... Asif rightly pointed out how Rashid cause trouble within our team... Moin was the man! Thanks to the PCB, we might not get to see him anymore... He was amongst the most interesting players to watch... When he was absent, I always thought our keepers didnt appeal/boost the morale like the Indian keeper, until Moin came back. He was very vocal on the field.

[quote]
Originally posted by sambrialian:
** I guess I have to. I ask you what is more important loyalty to the team or loyalty to the nation that you're representing. If I were to ever select players based on honesty and integrity, Latif's name would be penned down before all. The entire cricketing world owes a debt to Rashid for exposing the ring of match fixing. **
[/quote]

I hope the loyalty doesn't mean deserting your team, and accusing your team of match fixing after every loss. And the world (May be Pakistan owes) doesn't owe anything to Rashid for clearing the Match Fixing thing, If at all anyone owes anything to anyone then it would by Delhi Police.

[quote]
why can't Rashid when he has seen every move of Wasim's for the years he has kept for him?
[/quote]

Why only Wasim, He accused every one from Saeed anwar, Inzi, Waqar, Musshtaq everyone... As If he was the only saint in the company of crooks (if they were).

[quote]
*About the point where he claimed that our bowlers do tamper with the ball, I think it was a comment out of frustration rather anything else. You may choose to believe otherwise. *
[/quote]

Oh, just because you are frustrated you can accuse your team-mates of anything, even If you are no there in the field with him.

[quote]
from Latif's point of view after you have been out of the team for years even though you were kicked out for the wrong reasons...
[/quote]

He wasn't kicked out of the team, He himself deserted the team and retired from Cricket along with BASIT ALI ( A very talented cricketer)


AK

[This message has been edited by ehsan (edited July 19, 2002).]

AOA

Regardless of all the comments above about Moin not being a good wicketkeepr but I will pick Moin Khan over Rashid Latif anyday.

I do think that Rashid Latif is silghtly better in wicketkeeping than Moin Khan but we need someone who can produce a match winning performance.

Moin Khan is stronger than Latif mentally and physically.

The guy is very vocal around the field and he does tend to pressure the batsman behind the stumps.

He had some bad days like someone mentioned above about Sharjah Cup 2000 and being able to handle Shoaib's high pitched bouncer.

If anyone would have watched the semi final between Pakistan & Newzeland in 92 World Cup you would know how great this guy is.

Leaving all the statistics aside Moin Khan is still better than Latif overall.

Our Pakistani team needs someone who can be a decent wicketkeeper but also a good allround batsman as well just like Adam Gilchrist.

Yes its true that he gives extra runs but he also makes up for that by scoring runs as well.

Rashid Latif in recent months have improved drastically with the bat but he has a long way to go to get to the aggressiveness like Moin.

Thats the kind of batsman are required who are coming in at 6 or 7. Pure agrressiveness and able to hit the ball out of the ground whe really needed.

Moin has done very well with the bat not just with his aggressive style but also with a defensive play.

I hope everyone remembers the first Asian Test Championship match between Pakistan & India where all of our batsman fell helplessly from great bowling performance from Javagal Srinath but Moin came in and played responsibly.

All in all I do admire Rashid Latif's great performance abilities but compared to Moin Khan he is not strong enough physically.

For example, since making into the national team since last year Rahsid Latif have been the victim of dehybernation on 3 different occasion.

First on in England last year in the Natwest Series in the first match against Australia in Cardiff.

Second in the test series against the Westindies in Sharjah.

Third in the last test played by Pakistan against Newzeland at Lahore.

In all those situations poor Younis Khan have had to kept wickets and that resulted him in dropping 3 catches.


Here is a very interesting article on cricinfo about Rashid Latif.

[quote]
*How much of a role do 'keepers play in winning matches?
Waheed Khan - 5 July 2002

Whoever eventually replaces Rashid Latif is unlikely to match his unique career statistics. Wasim Bari did play a record 81 Tests for Pakistan but even he did not come close to Rashid's achievement in just 31 Tests over a 10 year span.

Cricket, like all sports, thrives on its personalities and glamourised by the media. Ask any avid cricket lover or a man on the street to name a few players and quickly, names of Shoaib Akhtar, Wasim Akram, Shahid Afridi will roll off his tongue.

Not surprising, considering they are the ones who provide the colour and glamour to international cricket and make the media's day. But as fate would have it, uncannily, in recent months the subject of wicket-keepers has been widely reported on and discussed by the critics.

England 'keeper James Foster has been in the limelight by being written up after he was preferred over the vastly experienced Alec Stewart until he injured himself.

During India's recent West Indian tour, Deep Dasgupta and Ajay Ratra caught everyone's attention over the perennial argument of whether it is better to play a specialist wicket-keeper/batsman or a specialist batsman/wicket-keeper.

Ratra, meanwhile, with his maiden Test hundred in Antigua has apparently made it obvious that in these days of non-stop international cricket, there is no such thing as a specialist wicket-keeper who is a rabbit with the bat.

Today, not many teams have a wicket-keeper who is a complete novice with the bat. Adam Gilchrist in fact can be credited with glamorising the role of the wicket-keeper in recent times. Such has been his impact on Australian cricket that he is mentioned now in the same league as Glenn McGrath, Shane Warne and Ricky Ponting.

Mark Boucher of South Africa is everyone's favourite with his "boy next door" looks and clean-cut image. Sri Lanka have Romesh Kaluwitharana and Kumar Sangakkara, both capable of playing on their own as batsmen, while Zimbabwe has been served brilliantly by Andy Flower or the schoolboy Tatenda Taibu.

Even the Bangladesh team captain Khalid Mashud has become integral to the Test cricketing babes with his 'keeping and above average batting ability.

But, perhaps, no wicket-keeper has enjoyed a success story as perfect as Pakistan's Rashid Latif.

**Last year, at the age of 32, he made a comeback to the Pakistan squad in England after three years in the wilderness and since then, has confounded everyone with his brilliance behind the stumps and his many valuable knocks at critical times. His is a story of determination; a narrative marked by incidents of controversy.

A few years ago, Rashid hit the headlines for blowing the whistle on his teammates in South Africa and Zimbabwe when the match-fixing scandal first reared its ugly head. Today, however, he has a different tale to tell. A tale where the Pakistan team can't afford to do without him. A tale where he has matured as a person and realised that loyalty counts for a lot and that at times a person has to make compromises for his family and friends.

When he came back to the team in England, his critics were sceptical of his performances and doubted he could fill Moin Khan's boots, given the latter's uncanny knack of bailing out Pakistan time and again when facing disaster.

Rashid proved everyone wrong, for in his very second comeback Test at Manchester he scored a match winning 71 and accounted for seven dismissals in Pakistan's upset win. It was ironic that Rashid made such a decisive comeback in the same country and against the same opposition against whom he made his Test debut with a bang in 1992 but also lost favour of his teammates and selectors in 1996.

Today, Rashid realises just how much of a difference it makes to be in the Pakistan team and out of it. "I have learnt my lessons. Today I have nothing on my mind except to continue playing as long as I can for Pakistan. Today I have learnt to play with niggling injuries and problems because I learnt the bitter way once you are out of the team; it is very hard to make a comeback. No one hands you a Pakistan place on a plate, you have to fight for it, and thus one must learn to appreciate the importance of wearing the Pakistan colours."

He has no complaints about what has happened in the past. "All that is history. Today I realise I have competition with Moin Khan. If I don't perform he or the other youngsters are waiting to take my place."

They say statistics never lie in cricket and in Rashid's case they say a lot about his contribution to the team and as a wicket-keeper/batsman of exceptional calibre. How many Pakistan players can claim to having been a member of a Pakistan team, which has a 75 per cent win record?

Hard to believe but true in Rashid's case. Of the 31 Tests he has played, Pakistan has won 22, lost five and drawn four. More interestingly, in these 22 Tests, Rashid has been a member of the winning team and has contributed 916 runs with five 50s with one century at an average of 36.64. But the topping on the cake, besides his runs, are 84 dismissals as a wicket-keeper.

Consider this: with his overall record of 1,162 runs in 31 Tests at an average of 29.05 with five fifties and one hundred and a total of 108 dismissals and it is obvious just how much of a key role Rashid has played in matches that Pakistan won.

Compare this with Wasim Bari's record of having seen Pakistan win just 17 matches in 81 Tests in which his contribution was 202 runs at an average of 22 with one fifty and he effected a total of only 60 dismissals.

Compare it with Moin Khan's record of 63 Test appearances in which Pakistan won 18 when he was keeping. A total of 636 runs at an average of 26.50 with six fifties and total of 46 dismissals in these victories. Or even with that of Saleem Yousuf who also enjoyed a remarkable run as wicket-keeper/batsman under Imran Khan's leadership.

When Yousuf was wicket-keeper in 32 Tests, Pakistan won12 of them in which he scored 351 runs at an average of 25.07 with two half-centuries and executed an impressive 57 dismissals. So where does Rashid Latif stand in the hall of fame when it comes to Pakistani wicket-keepers?

Not to forget that he completed 100 dismissals in Tests in the quickest time of 28 Tests, whereas Yousuf did so in 31 Tests, Bari in 36 Tests, Moin in 49 Tests and Imtiaz Ahmed managed 93 victims in 41 Tests which included three as a fielder.

Rashid is also the only Pakistani 'keeper to have effected five dismissals in an innings five times in his short Test career; the second best are Bari and Yousuf with two such instances each.

Another interesting piece of information as far as Pakistani wicket-keepers are concerned is that there were 40 innings in Bari's Test career when he didn't have a single dismissal, whereas Moin went through 35 such innings, Yousuf 10 innings, Imtiaz 22 innings and Rashid 13 innings without a dismissal.

So what do all these stats prove or do they prove anything at all? Sure, there will be critics who will argue that in Bari's time Pakistan's bowling attack was not as effective as it is today. As such there were fewer opportunities for a 'keeper to take catches or perform stumpings.

But if these statistics don't really give a clear answer to who is the best wicket-keeper/batsman to have represented Pakistan, they do make one thing very clear, the attitude of the Pakistan teams in the last five decades.

Given the win ratio when either Rashid or Moin played in 94 Tests between them, Pakistan won a total of 40 tests, drew 28 and lost 26, which is not a bad record at all. The figures indicate that the Pakistan team during the period when these two played in the 1990s and in the last two years had more belief in itself and could win matches consistently.

Now compare this with Wasim Bari's 81 Tests with 17 wins and 43 draws and it becomes obvious that in the period he played in the late 1960s, the '70s and early '80s, the Pakistan team was clearly more content to play safe.

What is interesting is that Pakistan won six of these 17 matches during a golden period of 14 Tests, with Mushtaq Mohammad as captain between 1976 and 1979 when Pakistan beat New Zealand (twice), Australia at Sydney, the West Indies in Port-of-Spain and then India at home (twice). They drew five of the matches and lost the remaining three to Australia in Australia and the West Indies at Port-of-Spain and Kingston, Jamaica.

Bari did not play in one of the drawn matches at Karachi against New Zealand and in his place Shahid Israr kept wicket for Pakistan. That was the only time that Bari missed a Test since making his debut in 1967 at the age of 19 years and 126 days.

Then we come to the record of the Pakistan team when Imtiaz Ahmed was the 'keeper between 1952 and 1962, when the Pakistan team was at its weakest and lacked superstars apart from Fazal Mahmood, Hanif Mohammad or Imtiaz himself.

Pakistan won eight Tests and drew 20 in this period, most of the wins being credited to that outstanding leader, Abdul Hafeez Kardar.

Let us look at the stats in more detail:

Rashid Latif's Test Record
Tests Runs HS Avg 100's 50's Ct St
Played 31 1162 150 29.05 1 5 98 10
Pak won 22 916 150 36.64 1 5 75 9
Wasim Bari's Test Record
Tests Runs HS Avg 100's 50's Ct St
Played 81 1366 85 5.88 0 6 201 27
Pak won 17 202 85 22.44 0 1 50 10
Moin Khan's Test Record
Tests Runs HS Avg 100's 50's Ct St
Played 63 2493 117* 28.32 3 15 114 20
Pak won 18 636 70 26.50 0 6 40 6
Saleem Yousuf's Test Record
Tests Runs HS Avg 100's 50's Ct St
Played 32 1055 91* 27.05 0 5 91 13
Pak won 12 351 62 25.07 0 2 50 7 ***
[/quote]


I say Rashid Latif is a better wicket keeper than Moin Khan and a more repliable batsman than Moin Khan.. and as far as Rashid Latif being the best in the world, I agree with that too..

code:

Latif:Test Catches Stumps31 98 10Ondayers129 133 32Gilchrist:Test Catches Stumps31 122 10Ondayers136 187 32Boucher:Test Catches Stumps52 196 5Ondayers118 166 8


Do keep in my mind, most paki bowlers tend to get their wickets through LBW's or Clean Bowling.. specially waqar Younis and Wasim Akram, and also Shoaib and Razzaq to some extent.. and where as Mcgrath and Lee along with other Aussies bolwers get wicket of the edges and caught behinds.. thats exactly why Gilchrist has better catching stats than Moin Khan and Rashid Latif.

Anyways, thats my opinion.


"One mood, all the time"