It’s just an expression at the end of the day. Why is it such a big deal? Dude, calm down. If you don’t like Islam here’s some good news for you: it’s not compulsory for you to become one 
**Originally posted by soul: *
no, no egyptian was smitten by the concept of prophet...they still countinued to be animists....*
I don't know which history you are talking about. But he had a good number of people following him (Moses), the ruler of course saw this as a threat to his throne and kept opposing Moses till his death. BTW, do you know how that ruler died?
If a prophet from egypt is mentioned in Koran, than why not prophets of australia, china, india etc??? btw, i've not heard of any]
Because follower of that prophet existed in "Saudi Arabia"... does that ring any bells anywhere? Again, Quran mentions prophets so people can relate and know what Quran really is talking about. Yes, most of the stories are of Prophets around mid-east area, but that does not mean that Quran was only for those people.
Agreed, so koran was meant for ME region....it discussed issues and dresscode related to ppl there....there was nothing universal about it. Fine!
No, Quran was not meant for ME region. There is a difference. When a book is written anywhere in the world, if it does not relate to local population's issues, problem who gives a damn? Quran was revealed in mid-east so it had to contain stories of earlier prophets of that region so people come to senses and start listening. Once people pay attention, its easy to tell them what you want.
The stories do belong to most of mid-east region, but "Shariat" does not. Shariat is "universal". BTW, where did you see the "dresscode" in Quran?
*They asked us to use our head, and be answerable to one own self.
Does that match teachings of your prophets....or were they breaking the rules? *
I don't know what their teachings are, if you are interested in knowing whether they were "God's messengers" or not then you should do the study and compare their teachings with the "common-set" of Islam, Christianity, Judaism.
**Originally posted by soul: *
There are two kind of ppl, the gullible and the non-gullible....*
There are more than two kind of people. There are those arrogant people, those "you don't belong to us, I won't listen to you" people and many many more. The world is not black and white.
the gullible would beleive any story told to them from any book...
the nongullibles, dont beleive tales too easily, now that explains why non-gullibles were disliked by prophets ....hmmmm!!
who cares about believing in story or not? again, its a matter of "faith".
Kaffirs=nongullibles
Where do you live, on Mars? I thought you belonged to earth.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Changez_like: *
*Originally posted by soul: *
There are two kind of ppl, the gullible and the non-gullible....*
There are more than two kind of people. There are those arrogant people, those "you don't belong to us, I won't listen to you" people and many many more. The world is not black and white.
the gullible would beleive any story told to them from any book...
the nongullibles, dont beleive tales too easily, now that explains why non-gullibles were disliked by prophets ....hmmmm!!
who cares about believing in story or not? again, its a matter of "faith".
Kaffirs=nongullibles
Where do you live, on Mars? I thought you belonged to earth.
[/QUOTE]
do you need to believe in specfic religen to live on this earth unless
a country specifcally requires its citizens to declare his faith or describes
official religen
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
do you need to believe in specfic religen to live on this earth unless
a country specifcally requires its citizens to declare his faith or describes
official religen
[/QUOTE]
Not in Pakistan you don't. This Changez guy is in a minority, his views are not really representative of our country so they should be taken with a pinch of salt.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
do you need to believe in specfic religen to live on this earth unless
a country specifcally requires its citizens to declare his faith or describes
official religen
[/QUOTE]
no, the way he is generalising under one umbrella, it appears that he is seeing everything in black and white, he must be alien to the world we live in.
[QUOTE]
I don't know which history you are talking about. But he had a good number of people following him (Moses), the ruler of course saw this as a threat to his throne and kept opposing Moses till his death.
[/QUOTE]
jest brushing you up....
ppl who followed moses were slaves of egypt ruler.
Who were they? the hebrews.
Who were egyptians? the copts.
Did the copts follow moses to the promised land? no.
Did the copts embraced Judaism? nope never.
Than what were they following? Animism.
Untill christinity was exported to their land...than too half of them stuck to practising their old original religion.
Gathered???!!!
Wot ever moses did, makes perfect sense. He liberated the slaves from suppression and gave them a new life. It was more a political struggle between two cousins....How much God was involved is a different matter. I would respect moses anyway for his courage and sympathy for the oppressed.
He might have felt a need to reign in those liberated by him...from going total beserk with their new found freedom...so he gave them a 10 pt constitution, which was simple basic human soceity rules. And to see that they followed it the way he wanted, he introduced it with GOD's fear attached...It works! God's fear always works with the masses.
Any surprises??
[QUOTE]
Because follower of that prophet existed in "Saudi Arabia"... does that ring any bells anywhere? Again, Quran mentions prophets so people can relate and know what Quran really is talking about. Yes, most of the stories are of Prophets around mid-east area, but that does not mean that Quran was only for those people.
[/QUOTE]
Islam specifically includes the concept of Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-Harb. If you consider the milieu in which prophet Mohammed was born, the concept instantly gains validity, the Dar-ul-Harb, which translates as the land of war is nothing but a reference to the warring factions within the Pagan, non-Muslim Arabs. Under those circumstances, the Koran recommends the right thing.
A really great thing about Islam was the way it eliminated caste divisions in a single stroke. I know many here would argue that there are divisions - Shia and Sunni for instance - but the intent of Islam was not to create those divisions.
There is considerable attention paid in Islam to cleanlines and hygiene - how not to pick your nose, how to wash yourself after intercourse, and so forth. I reckon that those Arabs must have been a pretty filthy, savage lot. Hence all this obsession with hygiene.
If you look at Islam specifically considering the background under which it was born, it all makes perfect sense.
Islam was precisely what was needed back then and there to bring law and order, to usher in an era of stability.
Again to educate illiterate barberrian arabs on the principle of civilise living, it was necessary to introduce God's fear in the whole affair.
And those who were adamant, were dealt as someone going against the will of God, and thus making them feel leftout and condemned. So term 'Kafir' had a significance than. It helped them to turn to islam or feel rediculed and shown as unloved by almighty....Prophet won most of the arab attention this way, and islam improved and integrated them under one banner. Paganism was replaced by a new improved following.
In today's context, term 'Kaffir' has lost its relevance. Dont you see, its dividing you from rest of us? Think!
and yes, Islam is very related to culture of saudi arabia/ middle east.
As Gita is for India.
**Originally posted by soul: *
....
Gathered???!!!*
So his existence in Egypt is denied? He was in Egypt and preached everyone, the ones accepted were slaves, was that in Egypt or not?
...he introduced it with GOD's fear attached...It works! God's fear always works with the masses.
Any surprises??
And the fact that river split into two, sending out food for them, his "stick" fighting against those of majicians... all was a farce? someone up in Greece was making a fiction story?
...
In today's context, term 'Kaffir' has lost its relevance. Dont you see, its dividing you from rest of us? Think!
Yeah, and "Pakistani", "Indian", "American" are only for uniting purposes?
*and yes, Islam is very related to culture of saudi arabia/ middle east.
As Gita is for India. *
No. Every culture adopts Islam its own way. Islam does not dictate culture. Islam does not say you have to wear dhoti or shalwar qameez, it gives you guidelines, you have to make sure that your culture is not going against Islam.
Really? I am from minority? Do you think I am Hindu, Jew, Christian or what? 
On the second thought, I guess I am a minority. An undefined minority who takes Quran as superior most book for judgements, rulings, guidance :(.
Just a general note to everyone, please: Bring this thread back to its original intended discussion and discuss the issue with respect, or I will gather great satisfaction in closing this thread.
Any questions or problems with this issue - my Inbox is accessible to all on a 24 hour basis. Take it up via pm. Thank you very much -- Samarra.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
On the second thought, I guess I am a minority. An undefined minority who takes Quran as superior most book for judgements, rulings, guidance :(.
[/QUOTE]
I am part of this minority too.
those who still say that the people of the book r not included in the kaafir category, shud see the following verse....
Quran 98:6
Lo! the KAAFIRs, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
[QUOTE]
Lo! the KAAFIRs, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
[/QUOTE]
lol...and your allah keeps producing them en mass anyway...and keeps overcrowding hell !! kya ishstyle hai!
soul, please familiarize yourself with Rules of Religion Forum (by clicking the link). If there is anything you are not sure about or have any questions feel free to PM me or Samarrra or post in Feedback Forum. We will promptly answer your questions.
The above statement was a violation of one of such rules. Specifically #3, i.e “ridicule, or making a mockery of Allah and/or His books”. This is unacceptable on this website. You are free to excercize your freedom of speech on sites that allow such statements. Consider yourself warned.
Also, your question about “who is kaffir” has been answered and addressed and beaten to to death as well.