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streets r not the best source of learning....
and ppl on the streets dont really represent the real thing....
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On the contrary, streets are the best source of learning...heard of 'street smart'!! superficial book knowledge can never replace experience.
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*Originally posted by soul: *
On the contrary, streets are the best source of learning...heard of 'street smart'!! superficial book knowledge can never replace experience.
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yeah, seen them (street smart) on TV... just hear their answers to dumbest question and you will endup laughing for an hour.
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Its not God "messing" things up. Its human being not understanding things. God kept sending messengers, human kind accepted/rejected them. After accepting, they astrayed a few hundred/thousand years down the road. Astraying is not "God messing up", its us.
And who decides that human beings 2000 yrs ago did not understand 'things'? Astraying from principles is different than 'not understanding things' surely?
If universe changed its behavior for "chosen one", then the "Sign" will be quite obvious. Faith is in "unseen", if it does not remain "unseen" then what would be the purpose of "testing"?
Agreed. But faith is also based/strengthened by intellect. If one kind of faith appeals to me and makes me as moral/good/religious a person as you, does that count for something or is it still paganism?
Life on other galaxies is our imagination, what do we know if there really exists one or not? How do we know that if it exists they didn't receive a similar message?
That's my point - we don't know. The 'real' religion could be out there, in an even purer form. If you can believe in the afterlife and 100,000 yrs of pleasure for being a good muslim, is it so far fetched to imagine 'other worlds' and put one's religion and existence into perspective? After all great scientists and thinkers do so.
Thanks for the answer.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Changez_like: *
*Religion does not care whether its followers get trillion dollar or "0" dollar. Its matter of "faith". You can live in 'heaven-like' place all your life and stay non-Muslim, but that does not mean you'll get same life-style in "next-life". "Next life" is the most important life as that is considered "never ending one". Thats what **our (Muslim/Christian/Jews) belief* is, that once you die the story is not over, you wait till then "Judgement Day" and then go to "Hell" or "Heaven" according to your deeds/beliefs.
God sends his Messengers to send His messages, its upto people to accept or reject. If a civilisation survived 5000 years without obeying to God, it does not mean that the civilisation won against God.
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Our?? Now I'm confused. Aren't christians and jews the enemies of Islam, and idolators? Does this make it OK to be a jew or christian as all of you are going to the same heaven or hell according to deeds/beliefs? Like muslims, the other 2 bodies also believe they have the perfect religion, which makes it even stevens. If I convert to christianity my soul would be saved like a muslim's is, I'm guessing.
Can anyone ever win against God? For us to survive despite paganism and barbarianism, it must mean that evolution will go on despite religion.
[QUOTE]
Religion does not care whether its followers get trillion dollar or "0" dollar. Its matter of "faith". You can live in 'heaven-like' place all your life and stay non-Muslim, but that does not mean you'll get same life-style in "next-life". "Next life" is the most important life as that is considered "never ending one". Thats what our (Muslim/Christian/Jews) belief is, that once you die the story is not over, you wait till then "Judgement Day" and then go to "Hell" or "Heaven" according to your deeds/beliefs.
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changez,
heard, that without Almighty Supreme Being's 'will' not even a leaf falls on earth!! Without his node not a single penny can be earned, forget living in palaces....
Either you accept him as 'THE ALMIGHTY' who runs this world, in which case, he is behind every success or failure of every earthling, he is the king-maker, he writes destiny for you...and that is unquestionable. That in my opinion of a 'true beleiver'.
Or accept that since a nonbeliver worships false Gods, follows funny rituals, and lives a sinful life for 5,000 odd years....and than too he is more sucessful, more happier, and more gifted than a 'beleiver'....and he gets all he wants inspite of GOD not being on his side, in God's own territory... Than, either your description of nonbeleiver is faulty....or there is no God!!
Nobody has come back to tell you the description of 'heaven' or 'hell' or 'the judgement day'....Those are as imaginary as parallel universe and life on it...beleive one, beleive all....
Wot counts is wot you acheive here on this earth, and who you think is behind it.
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God sends his Messengers to send His messages, its upto people to accept or reject. If a civilisation survived 5000 years without obeying to God, it does not mean that the civilisation won against God.
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Does God need to send messengers?? Isn't he the one who owns all??
Does he need messangers and jehadis to run his world??
Ok, tell me why he didnt send any messenger in the subcontinent, where ppl were not obeying him??....neither did he sent anyone to china, japan and rest of the east??...was he bais towards M.E region??...
And now that the world has gone really bad, do we expect to see someone!!!!
'Prophet' is a semetic belief....
Eastern philosophy doesnot beleive in prophets....That is why, Mahavir/Buddha never claimed prophethood....they never claimed to have word with god....for them it was unheard.
That is why eastern phylosophy is more self realization...and moksha...rather than pleasing almighty and creating beleiver -nonbeleiver divisions....
I am not saying one is better than the other....Its only different!! And beleiving in something different, does not make them lesser human beings...or their beliefs faulty.....
**Originally posted by karina: *
And who decides that human beings 2000 yrs ago did not understand 'things'? Astraying from principles is different than 'not understanding things' surely?*
I was referring to "God messed up" when I said its what human being thinks.
Agreed. But faith is also based/strengthened by intellect. If one kind of faith appeals to me and makes me as moral/good/religious a person as you, does that count for something or is it still paganism?
Religion does not ask for being a good person only, but also to believe in The One Supreme being and not challenge His rules.
*That's my point - we don't know. The 'real' religion could be out there, in an even purer form. If you can believe in the afterlife and 100,000 yrs of pleasure for being a good muslim, is it so far fetched to imagine 'other worlds' and put one's religion and existence into perspective? After all great scientists and thinkers do so. *
"may be" , "may be not".... but as Muslim we believe we already have the right ingredients (faith) as delivered by our Prophet Mohammed PBUH. and who listens to "scientists" and "thinkers" for faith? They are all "lost souls".
**Originally posted by karina: *
Our?? Now I'm confused. Aren't christians and jews the enemies of Islam, and idolators? *
God sent messengers to all these people (Christians, Jews, Muslims)... They all believe in God. Christians have it more messed up and took the messenger as God too. But all these religions believe in life-after-death and "hell" and "heaven". All these religions claim that followers of their religion will goto Heaven and rest in Hell. To me that is upto Go, but at least all these religions have that common set "Life after death", "Hell", "Heaven", "Judgment" etc.
*Does this make it OK to be a jew or christian as all of you are going to the same heaven or hell according to deeds/beliefs? Like muslims, the other 2 bodies also believe they have the perfect religion, which makes it even stevens. If I convert to christianity my soul would be saved like a muslim's is, I'm guessing. *
Again, its upto God to let anyone in Heaven or not. But as per Quran, the minimum requirement is that one must believe in God's unity/one-being, Angels, His Books, Day of Judgement etc.
Also, not all Christians have one same faith, there are divisions after divisions among them. "Trinity" is not believed by all Christians.
*Can anyone ever win against God? For us to survive despite paganism and barbarianism, it must mean that evolution will go on despite religion. *
No one can win against God. Whatever happens around is all per God's approvals.
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*Originally posted by soul: *
Eastern philosophy doesnot beleive in prophets....That is why, Mahavir/Buddha never claimed prophethood....they never claimed to have word with god....for them it was unheard.
That is why eastern phylosophy is more self realization...and moksha...rather than pleasing almighty and creating beleiver -nonbeleiver divisions....
I am not saying one is better than the other....Its only different!! And beleiving in something different, does not make them lesser human beings...or their beliefs faulty.....
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Are you comparing eastern philosophy with semitic religion? Why not compare like with like?
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Religion does not ask for being a good person only, but also to believe in The One Supreme being and not challenge His rules.
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I believe in tbe One Supreme being and his set of rules. What does that make me?
Madhanee - I'd like your opinion too. What does that make me?
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*Originally posted by Judge^MentuLL: *
Are you comparing eastern philosophy with semitic religion? Why not compare like with like?
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Just like kaffir is used to describe someone different - eastern philosophy is a term used to describe something deeper than religion, but based on religion.
***Originally posted by soul: *
changez,
heard, that without Almighty Supreme Being's 'will' not even a leaf falls on earth!! Without his node not a single penny can be earned, forget living in palaces....
Either you accept him as 'THE ALMIGHTY' who runs this world, in which case, he is behind every success or failure of every earthling, he is the king-maker, he writes destiny for you...and that is unquestionable. That in my opinion of a 'true beleiver'.**
The discussion of "will" and "destiny" is entirely different discussion, lets keep it out for now.
Or accept that since a nonbeliver worships false Gods, follows funny rituals, and lives a sinful life for 5,000 odd years....and than too he is more sucessful, more happier, and more gifted than a 'beleiver'....and he gets all he wants inspite of GOD not being on his side, in God's own territory... Than, either your description of nonbeleiver is faulty....or there is no God!!
It is so hard to understand it? I never thought it was so hard. Anyway, I'll try to explain.
God does not want to exercise His strength or power all the time. If He wanted to do it then you wouldn't see any wrongs in the world, but then that would kill the purpose of "test".
Nobody has come back to tell you the description of 'heaven' or 'hell' or 'the judgement day'....Those are as imaginary as parallel universe and life on it...beleive one, beleive all....
God has sent messengers to describe Hell, or Heaven. Those messengers were also human being. If you want your uncle to go and visit hell and heaven and then describe to you, its not gonna happen. Again, that would kill the purpose of testing.
**Wot counts is wot you acheive here on this earth, and who you think is behind it.
Does God need to send messengers?? Isn't he the one who owns all??
Does he need messangers and jehadis to run his world??**
God does not need anyone. He sent messengers for us to learn about Him. If you don't want to accept Him, its your choice, but then you won't be able to complain to Him that you did not receive the message. He does not need jehadis or kafirs or bombs to run the world. Do you think He needs trishols to control the world or kaali-mata?
Ok, tell me why he didnt send any messenger in the subcontinent, where ppl were not obeying him??....neither did he sent anyone to china, japan and rest of the east??...was he bais towards M.E region??...
And now that the world has gone really bad, do we expect to see someone!!!!
How do you know nobody was sent there? As per our knowledge, God sent messengers to all mankind. May be the civilisation who lived in sub-continent had the message before they settled/immigrated to sub-continent? what do you know about the 6000 or 7000 year old history?
*'Prophet' is a semetic belief....
Eastern philosophy doesnot beleive in prophets....That is why, Mahavir/Buddha never claimed prophethood....they never claimed to have word with god....for them it was unheard.
That is why eastern phylosophy is more self realization...and moksha...rather than pleasing almighty and creating beleiver -nonbeleiver divisions....
I am not saying one is better than the other....Its only different!! And beleiving in something different, does not make them lesser human beings...or their beliefs faulty..... *
Question is not really about who is lesser human being or who is what. Its all matter of faith. We shall keep believing in what we believe, and you may stay in denial of that as long as you want to. To you is what YOU believe, and to us is ours.
Opinions...opinions.. :)
DO you think God needs to send those people a messenger who are slow in the head. He needs to give them a manual beause their congnitive and deductive reasoning skills are non-existent?
Special-ed kids go in little school buses clearly marked...need special attention...because they feel they are special... Chosen even! :)
**Originally posted by karina: *
I believe in tbe One Supreme being and his set of rules. What does that make me?*
read my other post regarding minimum requirements of "believer".
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*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
...Do you?
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As someone said.... who gives rodent's posterior ?
so what you’re saying is that kaffir is the same as being a choora in India or a gentile in Jerusalem? Or a goyim in Nagasaki maybe?
ok I see the link now :k:
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*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Apparently you do Changeez, that’s why you are bending backwards and sideways to explain what is Kafir and what is not. Eat your words and admit it that no one gives a jack about what is written in your scriptures and who is called what. In any event, what in your opinion, is more important document, Quran or the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan? 1 or 2?
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I don't need to bend, if you like to bend then do as much you would like to. Don't put words in my mouth, you eat your own.......... err words.
What others give or not is not my problem, all I care is the definition of "believer" in Quran.
I already gave my opinion of that constitution, you need to read the posts and stop asking questions again and again.
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
read my other post regarding minimum requirements of "believer".
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The 'minimum requirements' come under 'set of rules'. YOur set of rules might differ somewhat from mine. But I'm still believing in One Supreme and his set of rules. Pls answer me - what does that make me?
Do you…see the link? :k:
I’m glad.:k:
**Originally posted by karina: *
The 'minimum requirements' come under 'set of rules'. YOur set of rules might differ somewhat from mine. But I'm still believing in One Supreme and his set of rules. Pls answer me - what does that make me? *
If you don't make partners with that Supreme being, then you are not far from "believer". The "set of rules" may be different for you or me, but since "we" believe as Quran is the last of books revealed by God so I take that as my yard-stick to see the definition of "believer". And as per that book, a believer is one who believes in "one God, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, day of Judgement". God regards "making partners" as biggest crime (I think Quran also says its unforgivable if one dies with that belief).
Great we are all belivers. I belive that God has no partners, comes in teh form of Ram, Vishnu, Indra, Allah, Jesus and Yahweh. Still on eentity but different ways and forms of showing her prowess.
Glad we can all agree. I love you all....especially ahmedis.