[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by M: *I mean he gave up his rich arab lifestyle to go defend a poor muslim country like Afghanistan. He fought for the cause of his muslim brothers, he was a mujahid and for that he has to be admired.
After that though I think hes gone a bit crazy. And if he is guilty of everything that he has been accused of (debateable) then hell get what he deserves.
I think we should just leave it Allah to decide.
[/QUOTE]
I have absolutely no doubt that until as recently as 15 years ago Osama Bin Ladin was nothing else other than a role model Muslim. He was given wealth, but spent it on those less fortunate. He was a warrior, he was a combat leader, he helped ease the plight of refugees, he exhibited many of the best traits that Muslims are supposed to, he closely followed the Sunnah.
It was only after meeting and getting involved with the ideas of Dr Ayman Al-Zwahiri that Bin Ladin is known to have begun to change, and change considerably. His old mentor, Dr. Abdullah Azzam, was known to have not approved of Bin Ladin's following of Dr Al-Zwahiri.
I personally, based on the evidences that I have seen and read, hold Ayman Al-Zwahiri for taking the well-intentioned near-perfect Muslim, Osama Bin Ladin, and twisting him into something altogether darker.
hmmm. Just a clarification - what pissed me off is Laden's more recent call to assassinate Kofi Annan (whether or not he did the WTC attacks, or is he a "good" Muslim for sitting in a cave and ordering all these attacks, does the "west" deserve it, etc - these are all tangential questions for which i have very complex answers that may even surprise some of you because i am sort of leftist when it comes to that. That does not mean i don't want all of this discussed in this thread, but i want to clarify what my original intention was). M pointed out that he has no religious authority to call on all Muslims around the world to kill Kofi Annan. That is the fundamental point. Where does the religious authority come from? What is its source? This is a very important question; without a source, does that mean the individual has self-conferred religious authority upon himself? Now those who support the notion of Laden calling on all Muslims globally to assassinate Kofi Annan, please find me an Ayat in the Quran where self-imposition of the title of religious leader is allowed.
Irem, Absolutely there was a great deal of support for him post 9-11, not only in Pakistan but in Canada too - i met/meet many desis and Muslims who endorse him upto this day. It is easy to sit and write speeches about how "evil" other countries are, i can do that too - i know i could write a beautiful article about how morally corrupt the US is when it comes to their foreign policies. A very comfortable lifestyle. Laden should trade lives for one day with Mr. Edhi - far harder to pick up dead bodies from the street for burial, arrange for adoptions of abandoned little girls, drive an ambulance through crowded traffic to get to someone in distress. If Laden would do that, he would have all my dil ka respect. But any 15 year old can broadcast a hate-filled speech about the great satan.
M, You are right. Allah Will Judge him as He Will Judge all of us.
[quote] ass clowns liek OBL dont measure up to the bug ** stuck on shoes of ppl like Abdul Sattar Edhi who has devoted his life to do good for people. ambulances, orphanages, shelters..all kinds of things to help the common person.
and then u have these banner waving, book banging, frothing at the mouth, looney bin escapees like OBL who have done zilch for teh good of the common person.**
[/quote]
The reality for the Muslim folk is that OBL is the only person standing up to the States. To some people, this is the only way to proceed. They've had enough of sitting back and being slappped in the face by 'Western democracies' and Islamic nations ( if you can find any that is).The States on the other hand are no better in there ways either. Similarily, Bush doesn't also have authrority to represent the Muslim folk in the West, like he seems to be doing under the guise of democarcy, freedom, etc etc.
Right about now, with the current climate and anti Muslim rhetoric worldwide, Muslims are not going to go to the ballot box and officially vote OBL in to support or recognise him.
If he's decided to issue fatwas and take the War to the US, then that's his perogative. He is hifz of Qur'aan, has fought for Islam and is most probably willing to die for Islam. Can we say the same for ourselves?
Yes, there were otherways for standing up to the US if that was his aim, but he chose the route he did and only Allah knows best what was and is in OBL's heart and which side of the fence he will ultimately sit on.
No he doesn't represent all the Muslims, but a lot support his stance merely because of his stance.
since religion (Islam) does not call for the killing of Kofi Annan or for bombing the WTC towers or killing american citizens, u really cant say that he is putting forward a religious command....
or that he practicing religious authority....
perhaps the best answer to ur question wud be "what gives bush the authority to order the killing of osama"....
and kofi annan has proven to be a hypocrite anyway and i dont think any country in the world looks up to him....
wonder why osama wud be bothered by him....
Now why the heck would these slaves of kafirs who degrade bin-laden to dirt level question their master Bush?
It all makes sense now, Now I know why the crap happens to them in this life and hereafter. (Actually it always made sense)
"hmmm. Just a clarification - what pissed me off is Laden's more recent call to assassinate Kofi Annan"
And the Fatwa to kill American and Jewish civilians did NOT piss you off?
For years we Americans have been saying that Islam is a "hijacked religion". That is because the loudest voices are saying and doing such outrageous things in the name of religion that no other voices are heard.
Forget about AMericans OG. Even someare saying that but then they are deemed non-muslim by the resident scholars of gupshup. Take any of the search items, even as early as last week where a person in W VA complained about the local politics at the mosque and how the council had stacked islamists (yes islamists) to promote hateful diatribes aganst the jews and America. No introspection, no root cause analysis, no thought leadership, just bitcihng and moaning about "how islamis or unislamic that person is" "he'she has an agenda" and so on and so forth.
Everyone has his or her own distracters and Bin Ladin is no exception.
[QUOTE]
A very comfortable lifestyle. Laden should trade lives for one day with Mr. Edhi - far harder to pick up dead bodies from the street for burial, arrange for adoptions of abandoned little girls, drive an ambulance through crowded traffic to get to someone in distress.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Why don’t you follow your own advice, is life too comfortable for you? Show him how it’s done?
[QUOTE]
question is, if he didnt do it why is the arse so popular?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Typical sectarian response. I hope you won’t be using the same words for the Al-Qaem when he comes around with the sword to fight the world oppression. But then maybe you will be cheering him on as your books say that first of all he will kill the scholars of the Majority.
Sorry, no offence to any Osama-lovers out there. My apologies. But honestly...
[/QUOTE]
Remember when we say Islam's "enlightened moderates" are kind of a parallel with the West's "Fundos" (Graham, Falwell, etc.) This is what we're talking about.
P.S. no offense, Fraudz. I should say, those who would have us think they are progressive. And there are a lot.
isn't the idea of communication and discussion not to offend but to educate and discuss, even with those who you completely disagree with :)
I think she was just stating that as a preface so the easily offended do not take it as an offense but as a serious query and discussion. I did not look much deeper into that.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by STRONGMAN: *
**Now why the heck would these slaves of kafirs who degrade bin-laden to dirt level question their master Bush? *
[/QUOTE]
Elaborate on this, please. Are you calling me a "kafir"? i expect a very detailed reply; thank you in advance.
Sholay, Thank you. i appreciate your interesting, thought-out response.
OG, yaar that as well.
Kofi Annan isn't Muslim is he? Yet i am pissed that bin Laden made this stupid announcement. It doesn't matter whether the targeted individual for assassination is Muslim or nonMuslim. i am just sick of someone who spews out proclamations to kill while doing jack himself to alleviate so many social ills around the world.
Zainiest,
[quote] Why don’t you follow your own advice, is life too comfortable for you? Show him how it’s done?
[/quote]
Don't even TRY to make assumptions about me because i can guarantee you upfront, mister, you will get them all wrong. So please kindly do not waste my time or your's. Comprenez-vous maintenant?
Being Touchy are we? I have made no (Personal or otherwise) assumptions about you at all, I promise. Seems that you like to criticize but can’t take the same advice yourself.
I tend agree with M.
Many take the UN under Kofi Annan as an extension of American Foreign Policy.
*"THE reason the United Nations headquarters in Baghdad were bombed is because the * UN has been taken over by the US and turned into a “dark joke” and a “malignant force”, *according to one of the UN’s most internationally respected former leaders. *
*Denis Halliday, the former UN Assistant Secretary-General and UN Humanitarian Co-ordinator in Iraq, attacked the UN as an aggressive arm of US foreign policy in the immediate aftermath of the truck bomb attack on the UN mission in Baghdad which killed at least 23 people - many of whom were Halliday’s former friends and colleagues. * **“The West sees the UN as a benign organization, but the sad reality in much of the world is that the UN is not seen as benign,” said Halliday, who was nominated for the 2001 Nobel Peace Prize. “The UN Security Council has been taken over and corrupted by the US and UK, particularly with regard to Iraq, Palestine and Israel.” **
I hope disagreeing with you is not a crime. I’ll second what Spock has said about you. "Nadia, you are very innocent and kind-hearted, but you gotta realize, not everyone is like that! "
j’espère que vous m’avez compris maintenant :french:
Yeah. Typical sectarian response. I hope you won’t be using the same words for the Al-Qaem when he comes around with the sword to fight the world oppression. But then maybe you will be cheering him on as your books say that first of all he will kill the scholars of the Majority.
[/QUOTE]
unbelievable.
you managed to turn that into a sectarian thing. ten posters on this thread who have thrashed the arse that Laden is, and you single me out and claim that I am motivated by sectarianism.
Obviously you think everyone wears the same bloddy tinted glasses you wear.
Get out of your complex of persecution. I do not care about your petty sectarian trifles enough to bring them into every feckin thread. I can call an arse an arse without necessarily thinking of you.
i am not as innocent nor kind-hearted as you stated :o 
But i’ll accept the compliments nevertheless;~D