who controls us; why are we here; fate

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Ok so ive been really confused recentlu by certain things :frowning:

To begin with, for example, we all refer to kismat/ fate/ taqdeer which as far as I am concerned ALLah decides, he writes et.c Therefore everything that we do is decided by ALLAH, so then how are we being tested. If we ae godd or are bad, that was not within our own control, it was already decided for us.

What then is teh point of praying?? Ive stopped reading my namaz or praying for anything sonce in my mind, no matter wht we pray 4 ALLAH will do what he wishes to do, so praying is not going to have an effect r help in anyway whatsoever.
Many people say that infact ALLAH has given us free will to do as we wish and that he does not control us, wht he controls is when we come into this world and when we will leave Howver when things happen like for example someone not getting a job, or haveing a missacriage people say it was in your kismat not 4 it 2 happen u just jave to except that rather than saying oh you didnt work hard enough to get the job, u didnt have teh right degree or you didnt take care of yourself during your pregnancy et.c so which is right there is such a contradiction here

Just as ll the suffering in the world is concerned, some say it is a result of all teh evil in the worls, all the pain and suffering is due to mankinds own sufferings. If lets say some 1 is killed in a bomb attack , they were innocent, we would obvioulsy be ouratged at the people or individual that carried it out but it was also ALLAh decided that the innocent person was going to be killed.

Also things like the signs of day of judgement, ALLAH knows what they are, he is aware of what is going to happen, and the state of mankind nearer to kiyamat. My point is ife he knws wht we r going to do or morso decided wht we will be doing how is it a test, and therefore how can be be punished for deeds or rewarded for deeds which we carried out when ALLAH decided our fate:confused:

This really confuses me,:frowning:

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

As-Salaam-o-Alikum!

Allah does not decide what you will do; however, nothing happens w/out Allah's permission.

Example:
If you are intent on stealing and being a thief, then Allah may allow it to happen because that's what you want to do. (You choose to do wrong) The consequences will be for you to suffer, here in this life and there hereafter.

The choice to do right or wrong does indeed lie with us humans. When you do something that hurts anyone, it's the Satan's whispers that misguide you, put doubts in your heart and mind and make u do such. Sometimes we're just misguided.

IF Allah (SWT) willed, He could have made it such that we do nothing but worship Him. But, that would not be a test. This life is indeed a test for us all.

I feel you when you say you don't pray and or haven't been because you feel such and such. But, Alhamdulliah, I've changed myself for the good. It's the struggle to do good despite doubts, that will be looked upon and judged on the day of judgement. Allah (SWT) will not ask you, how well you did something. The thing of importance will be sincerity of Heart, and Did you EVEN try to do good?! How hard did you try to stay on the path despite all the distractions/doubts, etc.?

I pray for your guidance, and i hope Allah (SWT) forgive us all for our sins, little and big, and guide us all. I pray that Allah (SWT) keep us safe from the cursed Satan.

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Don’t ever get confused :slight_smile: especially matters regarding islam , there maybe a million ppl who are always there to help.

There are 3 kinds of taqdeer . the 1st is tha utal taqdeer - which cannot ever be changed. this taqdeer concerns about our birth , death times and our parents.
it means 3 things are always decided , when we will be born , when will we die
and in which family will we be born . this further means that it is also decided who are parents are again meaning who will be our life partners .
so 3 things already decided .
Now , let me tell some waqiya
Once Hazrat Ali rehmatuulah was going with his slave on a horse/camel to the bazaar . on his way he stopped by a friend’s house / someplace( i don’t know exactly wat was it ) there he asked his slave to guard the animal while he was away .
after sometime when Hazrat Ali returned he saw the slave and the leather horse/camelback was missing .
he went on and in bazzar found his slave . the slave said .. he had stolen the back and sold it off for 2 dinaar .
Hazrat Ali rehmatuullah replied .. he had already decided he would give him 2 dinaar for looking after the animal.. but he had already left.
so the summary is .. it is the path you have to choose to get to your destiny ..
this is how you are being tested . you have 2 choices .. good or bad …
but it is decided what you will get in the end .

the 3rd type of taqdeer i don’t know myself …
good luck .. :waves: and don’t leave namaz for some misconceptions.

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Nevertheless knew we were going to do that, b4 we did it, could he not have stopped that?

And its nt so much doubts that are stoppin me praying. It the doubts and misunderstandings or confusion that is stopping me. I dont knw whr im going with islam atm. Ive considered becuming a kaffir at times, becos ,many things just dnt make sense, and i see contradictions in islam or mayb that is my misunderstanding - i truly wish it is my understanding

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Aslam-O-Alaikum sister,

The story you told above I think is different and not related to Hazart Ali. I could be wrong, there could be 2 different stories. Any way here’s the one I know.

There was a very pious man who used to help everyone and if anyone comes to him for help he would make sure the person does not go away with empty hands or without being helped.

Once a person came to his house and said I am hungry and I need money to buy the food. The pious man said to that person that if he could wait at the door and he will go see what he can find in his house to help him. When the pious man came back he could not find the person at his door. So he started looking for him and ended up in bazar (market place) and at one of the shop he noticed this saddle that belong to him. He went to the shop and asked about the saddle how it ended up here. The shopkeeper said it belong to him because few mins ago someone sold it to him for 12 dinar. The pious person looked in his hand and saw he had 12 dinars.

The needy person who came to get some help at this pious man’s house had stolen the saddle and sold it for 12 dinar and when that pious man went in his house to get something to help this person he found 12 dinars which he thought he would give it to this needy person.

The moral of the story is that this person had 12 dinars in his “kismat” but it was up to him how he would get those 12 dinars…the right way or the wrong way…unfortunately he ended up getting it the wrong way.

Waslam.

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

:salam:

Tweety this question has perplexed me many times and I think that the explanation where muslims and our scholars say that Allah SWT knows all needs more explanation. This was also confusing for me when I thought that if Allah SWT decided it and knew it then what is my fault then. As long as I looked at it from this perspective I could not grasp it.

Consider it briefly as every path we tread in life has been laid down by Allah SWT for us. So naturally him SWT being the architect of each material or immaterial path knows what lies at the end of it or in other words one who takes such a path what he is destined for. Our test is to know and choose the correct path which leads to what he SWT has taught us to be the path of salvation.

The choice is ours and the destination for each of those choices has already been laid out by Allah SWT. Allah SWT is from the beginning and to the end which means he is not subject to time (infact he created time) but we are and we see these destinations as future. So this relativity causes us to not know the future which Allah SWT already has knowledge of.

The best example I can give you is that of a video game. The maker of that video game knows what lies from the beginning stage to the last stage. When we play it for the first time we do not know what lies ahead of us in each stage but our choices during the game determine where we end up, some choices knowingly and some unknowingly. So in relation to the maker we do not know what lies ahead of us but the maker knows exactly what his video game will present (destination) to you based on each step you progress further. Ofcourse video games can be played again and again but life is only once.

So it is Allah SWT independence from time and being the creator it the time that we are subject to that makes him knowledgible of everything we do and what lies ahead. What it means when it is said that the it has been decided is that that outcome of each choice available to us in life has been enumerated in the books of Allah SWT and decided, and we have been given freedom to choose based on what knowledge we possess. Allah SWT is not making our choices for us but has certainly decided what each choice we make leads to.

I hope this helps. This is not a scholarly explanation but I have never found comfort in scholarly explanations regarding this topic. I have been content with what I understand it as and it has increased my faith in trying my best to make the correct choices.

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Great thread…

Good question..I too scratched my head a lot about all this. Only to conclude that there is no God everytime. It is just that you should stop getting tempted by your sorrounding events or inputs which make you to do something against others or your own self. Forget about God during all this. God is just a Concept or theory imposed by others, either for good intentions or for bad intentions. watever…Eventually, I ended up being an agnost and not an atheist.

Just reject what all things don’t agree with reason. Ofcourse, it is upto you to decide eventually as to what to do.

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Salam

First part, i've already said is your will. You choose to do good or bad. Sometimes your mistakes or inexperience come to haunt you, and you think you just have 'bad luck'. It's not that.

Secondly, i totally understand what you mean. Trust me, I do. Doubts maybe just an opportunity to learn more. The answers are all there. You just have to look. What you don't understand can be because of a few reasons but the prominent 2 are, 1. You don't have the knowledge of it (like u haven't learned....or looked hard enough to try to learn, find out, seek information, etc.) 2. It's beyond comprehension. Somethings we don't understand right off the bat.

What you may see as contradiction(s) in Islam, may not necessarily be that. We sometimes don't understand certain logic or why something is said and/or done. But everything has a reason and logic.

You should search and read up on Islam. I'm not saying you don't....By God! i'm sure you know about the religion more than me. I think we all should seek the answers to all our questions, little or big because Quran is the book of all knowledge. We just have to read. If you do your homework and look around, i'm almost certain that you will find the answer(s) to your confusion. InshaAllah.

I'm here, if i can ever help in any way.

May Allah guide us all, and instill the knowledge of faith in us so we may become better muslims. Ameen

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

WS Bhai,
I don't know , I heard it that way .

thanx for putting it up :)

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

And the third is i remember
when you do something good - your good deed pays you and changes your path - automatically

or your bad deeds sometimes make things worse

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

My understanding based on Quran:
*Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainment of all things before their creation as written in the Book of Decrees Al Loh Al Mahfooz). [al-Qamar 54:49] *

is this:
Every action has a predetermined fate. For example fate of fire is to burn things. If you put your hand in fire so the fate of fire dictates that your hand gets burned. In this case you had the choice to put your hand in the fire or not. Allah has not pre-determined that you will put your hand in the fire but He has pre-determined the consequences of doing so. Allah has not pre-determined if you will go to Jannat or Jahannum. Your actions will determine your fate. If you do good deeds your fate is that you go to Jannat that is pre-determined fate of doing good deeds and vice versa.
So what is written in the Loh Al Mahfooz ? Not your fate in terms of your actions , meaning it is not written that you will do good deeds or bad deeds. But it is written in Loh al Mahfooz that if you did good deeds in this world you will be rewarded. So the fate of good deeds is reward and vice versa. So the fate is the natural reaction of your own actions. This concept becomes more powerful with the introduction of free will. Humans have free will which means their fate is not written already but fate of everything else is written already. See the example of fire above.
This explains the reason of bad things happening to good people. Allah has the fate of some else's actions due to which good people suffer. What about earth quakes and people dying as a result. It is not the fate of those people it the reaction of the earth quake. Why earth quake happened ? It is fate of movement of tectonic plates or lava bubbling out of earth. Why the tectonic plates moved ? It is the fate of the way Allah designed them. Why lava bubbled out of earth ? It is the fate of the way Allah designed the earth. Why Allah designed them this way ? Because he could test and try us whatever way he wanted to. He is the sole creator and designer. He gave us wisdom and free will to stay away from the places where earth quakes can happen but we chose to live there thinking nothing will happen. Look at New Orleans Allah did not design that area for people to live in ,that area is below the sea level but people decided to build a city there .

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Nice explanation.

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Very good post Mirch!

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Excellent explanation Mirch.

But can you factor in the prayer/dua/entreating aspect? Is prayer redundant? Also can positive approach or mindset help in any way?

Thanks

How to be closer to Allah?
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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Hey USR I like your example of video game. Just want to add something that the maker of the game knows all the outcomes but he definetely don’t know what choices will I be making while playing the game. Are you saying the same thing or you had something else in mind?

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Peace tweety_pie

First of all ... I cannot do more justice to this thread than that that has already been given above, the people here have answered in textbook fashion and have utilised good analogies.

These may still not be enough for some people.

We must be aware that we are taught to avoid thinking too much about things that go beyond our domain of comprehension as this is the path to kufr. You said in post number 4, 'I've considered becoming kafir' i.e. you did not want to believe it because you cannot understand it. The contradiction you see is not really there ... To have knowledge of something does not mean there is intervention in the path being taken. That is our view of it and things begin to get hazy at this point.

Anyway let's entertain the idea there is a kafir who undertakes an action and those who do think and believe it is purely their choice. This is no different to the Muslim position, we do not believe that our choices are influenced, except by the consequences of the choices we have taken in the past or those consequences that influential people around us have taken. By becoming a kafir one reaches the same conclusion as the Muslims ... which is that we have freedom to choose. It is only the next step that requires us to totally SUBMIT to the All Knowing God.

Now here is my two pence worth ...

Allah (SWT) is not bound by time, we are so for us the future is of a different fabric to the present. So let's not concentrate on the future let's concentrate on the 'present' ... if we do a deed is it not the case Allah (SWT) has Knowledge of it?

(alpha instance) Let's say we pick up a pen - Allah (SWT) has knowledge of it.

Well then we can assume as a thought model that every time instance past, present or future though for us finite beings are occurring with a different fabric of reality, for Allah (SWT) Who is Infinite has knowledge of these domains as if they are all of the same 'fabric' i.e. occurring "now" ... so that 'alpha instance' above can be applied in a continuous series of 'nows' that Allah (SWT) has ultimate Perception of. To a Timeless Being past, present, and future are inevitably the same or not significantly different.

The Al Lawh Mahfooz can be viewed as evidence that Allah (SWT) has knowledge of every instance ... but when thinking of intervention or restriction of fate we should revert to the model that Allah (SWT) Watches us in the actions we take from our choices. The two models are correct in their own frame of reference but when or if we try to combine these we fall into the trap of confusion.

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Jazzak Allah for encouragement.

Jazzak Alllah for encouragement.

Jazzak Allah for encouragement. Your questions are relavant to the topic but deserve a seperate thread. I will post my understanding about them in a new thread. Watch for it.
Regards

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Hey LB, long time no see. He'll know what choices you can choose from but the action of choosing is your own.

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

^^USR, I think of it in a similar manner except instead of the video game, I visualise hamsters or rats in a maze...I can see where each turn will lead them, but they make their own choice.

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Re: who controls us; why are we here; fate

Except rats are for experimentation.