Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
well said :k:
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Racism occurs everywhere in Pakistan. Reports that the MQM were fighting other ethnicities in Karachi is a very scary one indeed. If the violent tendencies start again I fear Karachi will collapse.
Racism is inherent in every society - just shown in different ways. Do we really need to discuss who is more racist?
have you ever asked why most people in Pakistan consider to be white or fair skinned beautiful?
There are somethings we can never change. I get the feeling people like Saleem want to create a unifying culture in Pakistan - but how is that possible - when people eat diffeently, look different, dress diferent, speak different languages, have different customs.
If people just want to create one culture - whose should that be?
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Muahjirs are the only rercorded ethnic grup in Pakistan n recent history who are carrying out ethnic cleansing. To be honest its not Muhajirs as a whole but the party Khekeshan claims "respresents" Karachi!
being inhabited by Pashtun people since recorded history. When some western Pashtun tribes arrived in Pashtunkhwa in 14th Century, the people that inhabited Peshawar Valley for example were Karlanris of the same ethnic stock as the arriving tribes.
Even if your point is true, I will not condone what has been done in the past no matter who did it, Pashtuns or whoever. We are living in a civilized age now and have left the age of barbarism far behind. I will like for all Pashtuns in Karachi to integrate into Sindhi society because they are living on the land of Sindhis. Now what do you say about your Muhajirs?
[/QUOTE]
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Its the Mohajirs who themselves have never let go of the fact that they are 'Mohajirs' - they never call themselves Sindhis or even residents of Sindh. They only consider themselves to be Karachities and Mohajirs. They are the only party who have time and time again carried out ethnic violence and terrorism. They have killed Sindhis and Pathans alike - the Sindhis are unfortunately too disorganized to fight back, however the Pathans are very well organized and financially well funded - they are traders, transporters etc, and as such they have been the biggest resistance to the MQM's terror in Karachi.
I think you will find that the majority of Pakistanis have no problem with urdu speaking people, indeed we are friends with them, married to them, have family integrated with them...but what the majority of people do have issues with is the MQM which is a terrorist party - and it must be destroyed with the key leadership which includes Altaf Hussein, Imran Farooq, Babar Ghouri, Farooq Sattar, Ishrat-ul-Abad - brought in front of a court of law where they finally pay the price for the murders and terrorism they have committed.
The Urdu Speaking population, by the way, for the most part - hate the MQM - Im talking about the professionals, the young urdu speaking ppl, et - they just bring a bad name to them.
So the terrorist leaders of the MQM must be elliminated, along with their gunda wings spread across the city...once the party is destroyed along with its terrorist leadership, you will find that there will be no ethnic issues in Karachi.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Please read carefully and think It is important that Pakistanis should know who are ethnic and racist in Pakistan and who are really playing with the future of Pakistan as one country. One can even find them out on this forum as post of these people tells everything.
As for Parties in Pakistan, one should look at the parties and see if they allow representation of all ethnicity in their party or not. For instance, we should check how many representatives in ANP are non-Pakhtuns, how many representatives in PPI are not Punjabi and Pukhtuns, etc. We have to also see if ANP is run by Punjabis in Punjab, Sindhi or Muhajir in Sindh or not. If party have members in provincial and national assemblies, we have to see if they have member on basis of non-ethnicity in assemblies or not.
Since Pakistan is country where there are religious and non-religious Muslims, Muslims from all school of thoughts (different Islamic sects), as well as non-Muslims, we also have to see parties are communal or not, by seeing if they have members representation of all communities or not, and that if they have members in assemblies, we have to see if all communities represent them in assemblies or not. [If any party we find are communal or racist, we should ask question from them].
As for judging people who are racist and ethnic, we can easily find them out, even on this forum as some of these people would:
1: Regularly talk about ethnicity and would make fun of others and show hate for others on ethnic basis.
2: Would only talk about rights on basis of ethnicity and not on merit.
3: Would talk about provincial autonomy and right of province on provincial resources and consider that Punjab is robbing them, but would never talk about right of Sindh on federal revenues collections in Sindh
4: Would never like complete merit in Pakistan on basis that Pakistan is confederation and all positions should be divided on provincial basis.
5: Many of their posts write that Pakistan is confederation and oppose the idea of dividing Pakistan into smaller administrative units.
6: Claim to have their distinct ethnicity and show how proud they are because of their ethnicity.
7: Would like the name of NWFP changed on the basis of ethnicity to Pakhtunistan or Pakhtunkhowa.
8: Supported Bugti because they believe that Bugti was hero because Bugti was fighting for Baloch (ethnic) cause.
9: When discussing Balochistan would show from their post that development of Gowader means huge influx of people from outside Balochistan and that to them is wrong as Gawadar belongs to Baloch, not Pakistanis.
10: Would be happy moving to Karachi (Sindh) as right and would like freedom to move to other provinces unhindered, but would hate people from Karachi and Punjab to move to their provinces. These people would never like domination in their area from anyone but would love to show dominance if they can in other part of Pakistan as their right.
11: Would like to move to other provinces and kill others on basis of ethnicity but would never tolerate others to move to their province and challenge them.
12: Would talk about differences of people in Pakistan on basis of language and culture, and would write how proud they are of their ethnicity and culture, and thus hate the idea of One Pakistan for all without distinction of ethnic background.
13: Would hate Urdu or even Punjabi as national language because it hurt their ethnic feelings.
14: Would always show their hate for others on basis of ethnicity and are proud of their ethnicity so much that they would be proud to call themselves Pakhtun and Afghans (as Afghanistan for them is Pakhtunistan) and whoever they won’t like they would call them Punjabis or Muhajirs.
15: If Muhajir get killed in Karachi it is fine but along with Muhajir if Pakhtun or others also get killed, that would be ethnic killing. For these people, killing of Muhajirs in Karachi by Naseer-ullah Baber was national heroism.
16: Would always talk about past personalities that they believe represent them but would never talk about personalities that do not represent them (in ethnic sense, religious sense or sectarian sense).
17: Would never accept anything bad coming from their own ethnicity, religious or sectarian affiliation however clearly proven to them, but would be first to blame other ethnicity, religious or sects they do not like for anything bad against all odds of proves and logic.
Well, there are many clear signs of these people and one can easily tell who in Pakistan are ethnic and racist. One should know them and know what they are, and be aware of them.
One should ask oneself, that when they support or dislike someone, then the cause of their support or dislike is because of 'work by that person for the country' or because of their own racist and communal feelings (based on ethnicity, religious, or sectarian affiliations)
The rationlae of the post is excellent but the subsequent questions you have put up as a follow up on the rationale are leading ones and reflect an ethnic bias of yours own. It would have been a lot better had you highlighted the basic profiles of the political parties on the very rationale of your post first.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
i think them being migrants and then failig to integrate later has made things worse. there were indian punjabi migrans to pakistani punjab but they integrated - theres no rioting there.
i think the word muhajir is probably not even accepted by most of them - who wants to be tagged refugee?? even afghans have a problem with that tag and they are in temporary residence within pakistan so imagine the hurt it causes these people who did figth for pakistan and sacrificed anythign they had in india to move across.
i think the biggest problem is when an ethnic argument starts out we all have to take sides and bash each other. look how individuals here are attacking each oters ethnicities when their problem is with the writer.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Iconoclast,
"Actually it is
Dey un ko dil aur Jo na dey mujh ko Zubaan aur"
You have also broke the leg of Ghalib That makes two of us. The actual ashaar are:
Ya rab na woh samjay hain na samjhaingay meri baat
Dey aur jo dil unko na dey mujh ko zubaan aur
Tum shehar main ho to hamain kya gham jab milain ge
lay aaingay baazar se ja kar dil o jan aur
I used to remember these ashaar when I sing Mohammad Rafi's above ghazal from "Mirza Ghalib" starring Bharat Bhoshan and Surreya (Both dead now). A wonderful movie to watch even now, on the life of Ghalib, though in black and white pehaps made in 1945)
Thanks anyway for the correction.
FARID
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Saleem, to the all gibbirish you've spitted over here is one simple answer...that it is the natural, fundamental, and inalienable right of every human group and community to define and rule itself and retain its culture...It is the universal human right enshrined in UNO charter...you simply cannot impose the imported Indian culture from UP, the alien language Urdu-Hindi, and the artificial Pakistani pro-Urdu/Hindi identity on communities against their will...
Behind the facade of your Pakistani patriotism and complaints is hidden your own Muhajir super-racism and Hindustani fascism...You cannot tolerate a pluralistic Pakistan with its ethnic, cultural, and linguistic diversity preserved...So you've come out with this pro-Urdu/Hindi and anti-Pashtun, anti-Sindhi campaign using the excuse of your Urdu/Hindi centered Pakistani patriotism...You like all others to be like you and speak your language...In fact your views are the most racist on this board...Yours is the worst kind of racism...
As for Baluchistan and Baluchis, again it is their right to let who should come to Baluchistan and who not because that is their historical land...You simply cannot invade lands of others, like you've done in case of Sindh, and rob them of their resources and culture using the vague and self-serving notion of Pakistani patriotism and Islmic brotherhood...Matters of identity, culture, citizenship, etc. are not that simplistic as the simplinton minds of some would think...
And Karachi belongs to Sindhis not to you...Had not Muhajirs like Khujas, Memons, etc. pludered the resources of Pakistan in the initial days after partition and dumped them in Karachi, other ethnicities would not have migrated to Karachi...
ANP has a long history of stuggle against British imperialism and in favor of democracy and rights of people...It wants all languages and cultures to be considered equal and promoted equally unlike some Muhajir racists who want to impose their imported language and ideologies on others...It is not a party of thugs like MQM that supports a dictator because he appears to be an ethnic Muhajir...
Your racial rants and assumptions of others are beyond imagination. Nevertheless, when you spit venom of your racism on others, try to learn some facts too. Ignorance is the biggest evil of all and creates more problems then solves. Knowing and reading you, now I can realize why party like MQM came to existence, keeps existing, and why they are armed.
Anyhow, as you assume too much about me, let me tell you a little bit about myself first. My family (though not Sindhi speaking) is living in Karachi much before 1947 and in that sense I am as much Sindhi as any. Some of my family members are living in interior Sindh since 1930s or so. Well, I also have many relatives (due to inter-marriages) who are Sindhi speaking and living in Sindh since centuries.
Second thing I would like to tell you to increase your knowledge (and of all who may not know) is the reason why most in Karachi do not know Sindhi (that I hope with time would change, even though it does not matter).
One reason is that, dominating and most widely spoken language of Karachi since much before Partition was never Sindhi (but Gujrati).
Second and main reason is that, when people of India migrated to Karachi, they did not migrate to Sindh. When Muhajirs came to Karachi, Karachi was not part of Sindh but in around 1947 Karachi got separated from Sindh and became Federal Capital territory (like Islamabad today). Even when Capital was moved from Karachi in 1959, it was still federally administrated territory and stayed like that until it was annexed with Sindh in 1972. Before annexation with Sindh, Hyedrabad was Capital of Sindh.
Just imagine that area of Islamabad was part of Punjab. But it was separated from Punjab in around 1959 (much after Karachi got separated from Sindh). Now, those that move to Islamabad, should they be considered as moving to Punjab, should call themselves Punjabi and should start speaking Punjabi? Is Islamabad part of Punjab?
Nevertheless, those Muhajir who migrated to Hyderabad, Nawabshah, Sukkar, Larkana and other areas in Sindh know Sindhi as much as Urdu (like any Sindhi speaking). It was such that when as kid I use to go to Hyderabad, Hala, Kotri, Shujawal, Thatta, and other areas of Sindh, I use to feel different, as most in interior Sindh (that includes Mujahir) use to behave differently and talk to each other in Sindhi whereas I did not knew Sindhi (well, my own cousins who lived in interior Sindh talks in Sindhi most of the time). As coming from Karachi, I was not exposed to Sindhi.
As for people in Sindh (including Karachi) calling themselves Muhajirs does not matter, as they are now sub-tribe of Sindh. Just like there are Syed (Shah), Sheikh, Rajput, Zardari, Bhutto, Mahar, Lashari, Chandio, etc, there is now another new sub-tribe of Sindh that are called Muhajir. These people are not going anywhere. They live and would die in Sindh and when they go abroad, they still return and make their houses in Sindh and retire in Sindh. If they work in Islamabad or any other place in Pakistan, still most come back to retire in Sindh.
Whatever they earn, they put it back in Sindh. If tomorrow there would be divided Pakistan (I hope not), still they would not run away to other places, but would live in Sindh. Muhajir consider Sindh as their home as much as any Sindhi. It does not happen that when Muhajir get killed or die, their bodies leave Sindh for any other place to get burried; neither Muhajir work in sindh to earn so that they can remit part of their earnings to any other places outside Sindh.
Actually, there is large Baloch population that lives in Sindh as Sindhi. All those Punjabis and Pathans that live in Sindh, die in Sindh, consider themselves Sindhi, have their loyalty with Sindh, and do not consider Sindh as foreign pasture land so that they can come–work-and flyaway, to me are also Sindhi as much as any Sindhi.
You wrote that Memons, bohri, Khujas, are not Sindhis. Actually all of them are Sindhis. Memon are original Sindhi people, much older Sindhi than most Sindhi you see today. Memon descend from a Sindhi Hindu tribe that was amongst the first to accept Islam and started calling themselves Momin that over time turned into Memon (though many migrated from Sindh to Kathiawar and some to Kutch, still those that did not migrated call themselves Sindhi Memon).
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Saleem,
"Second reason is that, when people of India migrated to Karachi, they did not migrate to Sindh. When Muhajirs came to Karachi, Karachi was not part of Sindh but in around 1947 Karachi got separated from Sindh and became Federal Capital territory (like Islamabad today). Even when Capital was moved from Karachi in 1959, it was still federally administrated territory and stayed like that until it was annexed with Sindh in 1972. Before annexation with Sindh, Hyedrabad was Capital of Sindh."
What are you talking about? Karachi was before 1947, is and will be part of Sindh. So what if Karachi was capital of Pakistan, was still part of Sindh. You mean Islamabad is now capital of Pakistan is not a city of Punjab. What nonsense. Read Hisotry before you write something rubbish or misinform the people.
FARID
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
You mean Islamabad is now capital of Pakistan is not a city of Punjab. FARID
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
. You mean Islamabad is now capital of Pakistan is not a city of Punjab. What nonsense. Read Hisotry before you write something rubbish or misinform the people.
NO Islamabad is not a city of punjab.
Its federal area
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Its the Mohajirs who themselves have never let go of the fact that they are 'Mohajirs' - they never call themselves Sindhis or even residents of Sindh. They only consider themselves to be Karachities and Mohajirs. .
you can move to england today, and you would be british, but you would not be english. hell and englishman can move to scotland and not be scottish. lets not confuse nationality with ethnicity. because by your example the pathans or punjabis living in sindh would be sindhi now and not consider the punjabi or pathan.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
^^^ In England and Scotland, you dont kill innocent people there, you dont establish your cruel rule on the actual citizens of those countries.
The bloody Muhajirs are bloody muhajirs and they should live like 2nd class citizen in this country and never try to become the masters of the actual Pakistanis.
I sometime support the idea of exterminating these MQM workers so as to get rid of this dirt once for all.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
^^^ In England and Scotland, you dont kill innocent people there, you dont establish your cruel rule on the actual citizens of those countries. The bloody Muhajirs are bloody muhajirs and they should live like 2nd class citizen in this country and never try to become the masters of the actual Pakistanis. I sometime support the idea of exterminating these MQM workers so as to get rid of this dirt once for all.
MQM is a messed up and stupid party, with no vision what so ever.
But Mohajirs dont all support the party, and many who do are simply ignorant...
Blaming the actions of the MQM is like blaming all Pashtuns for the Taliban...
There is a clear line between Mohajirs the ethnic group and the MQM.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Please read carefully and think It is important that Pakistanis should know who are ethnic and racist in Pakistan and who are really playing with the future of Pakistan as one country. One can even find them out on this forum as post of these people tells everything.
Mr. Saleem, your misonthrapy and ultra-Muhajiarism is best exposed by the statement above which begins with the usual hypocritic rants of typical Pakistanis that cannot have any other conception of Pakistan except the one in which Muhajir interests reign supreme.
You cannot imagine a Pakistan in which people and nationalities are bound by an equitable social contract and in which multiculturalism is celebrated rather than considered a threat. Evidently, you are dreaming of a Pakistan in which 7% Muhajirs are the masters, at the top of power-hierarchy, and the rest are the slaves, at the bottom of the political, cultural, and economic order.
Now everyone can see who is the worst racist.
It is this racist mentality and bigotory that forced Bangalis to part ways in 1971. How attempts were made to subject them to the cultural and economic imperialism of Muhajir-Punjabi dominated West Pakistan and to impose Urdu-Hindi on them is a part of the contemporary history(you know why UNO declared February 22 as the mother-tonuge day...because on this day Bangali students had resisted imposition of Urdu-Hindu and as a punishment had been slaughtered by army).
[quote]
As for Parties in Pakistan, one should look at the parties and see if they allow representation of all ethnicity in their party or not. For instance, we should check how many representatives in ANP are non-Pakhtuns, how many representatives in PPI are not Punjabi and Pukhtuns, etc. We have to also see if ANP is run by Punjabis in Punjab, Sindhi or Muhajir in Sindh or not. If party have members in provincial and national assemblies, we have to see if they have member on basis of non-ethnicity in assemblies or not.
[/quote]
Here again your argument contains the usual self-serving proposition and whimsical assertions.
In order to decide whether a political party or a group is racist or not, there are a number of factors that should be taken into account ...foremost whether the acts, ways, struggle, and history of the political party have been violent and militant or peaceful and political...whether its manefesto and ideology favors ethnic, cultural, and political pluralism and democracy or the hegemoney of the ethnic group it represents...and whether it is inclusive or exclusive of the different ethnic backgrounds...
ANP in the past had many political starlwarts from other ethnicities in its folds in top leadership positions not to mention Mulana Bashani, Attaullah Mengal, Sher Baz Mazari, Ghaus Bakhsh Bizanjo, Mian Mahmood Qasoori (from Punjab), Majid Sindhi, etc. Even now, some of its most influential leaders are not Pashto-speakers (e.g. Haji Adeel, Syed Aqil Shah, etc.). Also, it is political heir to Khudai Khidmatgars who espoused secularism and democracy for all...
Now compare this with MQM...Have not the ways and struggle of MQM been militant...Was not its birth coincided with violence...? How ethnically broad it is?
[quote]
1: Regularly talk about ethnicity and would make fun of others and show hate for others on ethnic basis.
[/quote]
Talking of one's identity and culture is not racism until you try to thrust it on others like some Muhajirs have done by advocating a vision of Pakistan that is Urdu-Hindi centered. Believe me I've seen Muhajirs who have lived in NWFP for almost two generations but have not bothered to learn even two words of the native lanuage...Now who are racists...One can well gauge from this.
[quote]
2: Would only talk about rights on basis of ethnicity and not on merit.
[/quote]
Disguised in this advocacy of merit is your Muhajir super-racism and inhumanity...Because you grabbed resources and became privileged due to favoratism of Muhajir leaders like Liaqat Ali Khan and Mohammad Ali Jannah and now have an obvious edge over Sindhis in terms of resourcefulness, you are supporting a system that perpetuates the status-quo...This is again naked racism...Your views in this regard are not inclusive but rather exclusive...
[quote]
3: Would talk about provincial autonomy and right of province on provincial resources and consider that Punjab is robbing them, but would never talk about right of Sindh on federal revenues collections in Sindh
[/quote]
The revenue from Seaport of Karachi, part of of the land of Sindhis, should be spent on the development of interior Sindh...
[quote]
4: Would never like complete merit in Pakistan on basis that Pakistan is confederation and all positions should be divided on provincial basis.
[/quote]
Answered above! Further 7% Muhajirs have more than they deserve...
[quote]
5: Many of their posts write that Pakistan is confederation and oppose the idea of dividing Pakistan into smaller administrative units.
[/quote]
Again concealed in this support for smaller units is the desire to have Karachi declared "Jinnah Pur" province of the Urdu/Hindi-speaking community. That must not happen because then Sindhis would be pushed to the wall and a blood-shed would happen...Moreover, in the original contract for Pakistan there were mentioned only 6 or 7 provinces...So first the federal question should be settled...then Muhajirs should find a way of peaceful co-existance with Sindhis...
[quote]
6: Claim to have their distinct ethnicity and show how proud they are because of their ethnicity.
[/quote]
That is not a bad thing...Every one that has a past and an identity takes pride in his/her culture...Bad thing is when you impose it on others...
[quote]
7: Would like the name of NWFP changed on the basis of ethnicity to Pakhtunistan or Pakhtunkhowa.
[/quote]
That is what the historical name of that area is and where they are in majority. They have the right to call their historical land whatever they want to.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Second and main reason is that, when people of India migrated to Karachi, they did not migrate to Sindh. When Muhajirs came to Karachi, Karachi was not part of Sindh but in around 1947 Karachi got separated from Sindh and became Federal Capital territory (like Islamabad today). Even when Capital was moved from Karachi in 1959, it was still federally administrated territory and stayed like that until it was annexed with Sindh in 1972. Before annexation with Sindh, Hyedrabad was Capital of Sindh.
Now you cant hide your true identity, no matter what you mentioned in your post to prove yourself to be a Sindhi.
In my view you are only an ardent supporter of MQM and nothing beyond that. Your all arguments are based on prejudice approach and arbitrary reasoning.
There are many like you in country who on the name of Pakistan sucking the blood of poor people. These people have created general hatred amongst other smaller provinces against the common punjabis. How dangerous you people are for the integrity of this country, once can hardly conceive.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
MQM is a messed up and stupid party, with no vision what so ever. But Mohajirs dont all support the party, and many who do are simply ignorant... Blaming the actions of the MQM is like blaming all Pashtuns for the Taliban... There is a clear line between Mohajirs the ethnic group and the MQM.
Pakistani establishment has already tried to do that in order to distract world attention from the sanctuaries, funding sources, logistical support-basis, and training camps for fanatics and Taleban...although world is not buying the assertion...
How far can you decieve a world with more information channels than you've!
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
yar arrgument dany sy kuch nahi hota. agar dil main ksi k ley dard ho to is ka ley practically kuch kr ka dakho. aik dusry per ilzam trashi karny sa kuch nahi hota
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Pakistani establishment has already tried to do that in order to distract world attention from the sanctuaries, funding sources, logistical support-basis, and training camps for fanatics and Taleban...although world is not buying the assertion...
How far can you decieve a world with more information channels than you've!
What, that the Taliban is a Pashtun dominant group? As far as I know, thats fact not missinformation. Intelligence agencies made the Taliban, but they also made the MQM... It was done to undermine the PPP in Sindh and Karachi.
Point still remians, you cant accuse an entire ethnic group for something a party does... If you dont like Taliban, then I can mention other parties such as the ANP, which obviously doesnt represent all Pashtuns.
Re: Who are really Racist in Pakistan?
Who are really Racist in Pakistan? :)
The bloody Muhajirs are bloody muhajirs and they should live like 2nd class citizen in this country and never try to become the masters of the actual Pakistanis. I sometime support the idea of exterminating these MQM workers so as to get rid of this dirt once for all.