It is scary..............well bro why dont you keep out of such company. you knw what, that may make you do the same thing as the comapny you keep is gonna change you to adjust with them. I agree its a very uincomfortable situation!
The farther you go from islam, the more complicated and worrysome life becomes...
Ive noticed this one too many times with myself and those around me ...
I used to at one time think Pakistan would be the place where i`d want my family growing up, now im not so sure about that.
Seems like there aint no safe haven for ideological muslims to grow their children up in this world anymore...
Yet another sign that perhaps the day is nearer then we imagine....
Allah Help us All and Guide us all.
I don't usually watch, or even appreciate many Indian movies, but for some reason, I was watching one yesterday. Its title was "Hum Tumhare Hein Sanam", and by sheer coincidence, the plot of the movie was exactly the same as what we are discussing here: Marital infidelity. While watching the movie (its a good sensible movie, by the way), I kept on thinking about this discussion and just wanted to add a few more points.
Firstly, marital infidelity is neither something new nor is limited to men, women or any cultural segment. Its as old as mankind. Remember the story of Hazarat Yousuf (AS) and Zuleikha. That was also marital infidelity. So, to put blame on modern culture or desi or western mindset, in my opinion, will not help. Its part of human nature. Human beings are not perfect, and to feel lust for another person is part of our anatomy. Why this thing happens and how to control it, is a long discussion, and in the following paragraphs I am just providing my brief synopsis on this issue.
First thing to remember is, that in my personal opinion, if we allow lust to take control of our senses on every step of the way, we will destroy our civic society. Thats when the concept of maturity comes in.
When we say, someone is mature, it doesn't necessarily mean, they are old in number of years, or can legally buy cigerettes. It essentially means that the person is now able to control his or her base desires, and these include desires of lust towards other people. Without some semblance of marital fidelity, in terms of maturity, there is little we can do to sustain a prolonged marriage in our society. Some African/Polynesian/Latin American tribes still go for multiple husbands and multiple wives (it was on Discovery channel yesterday) because they feel unable to cope with this infatuation and this regularize it by some tribal culture, but we, the rest of civic society frowns upon such practices.
So controlling your desires is the first step. If I can give an analogy, lets suppose an 18 year old with a fast car on the highway. At that age, if another driver over-takes him, the 18-year old takes it as a personal affront, and will speed up his car to overtake the "challenger" and to prove that "I can drive faster than you". This is mental immaturity. As you grow older, you realize that not every driver on the road is out there to challenge you to a racing dual, and you get more patient and don't feel like a dare as soon as someone passes you.
So, just because, you can have an extra-marital affair, doesn't mean you should. Focus on the long term, and control your desires. This is the first lesson of how to have a successful marriage. Teach this to yourself, and teach this to your children.
In a way, it is kind of contradictory. You notice that we teach our kids to excel in everything. To strive for better and better. To have the best grades. Now, its good advice for studies and sports and career. And so far as selecting your spouse. Go for the better one. But once, you tie the knot, don't keep on looking for better and better. Signing that marriage license or nikah nama means that now you should settle down with that person you selected and make the marriage work. Ok, in some cases it doesn't work out for many reasons and you feel you wanna get out. But if after marriage, you still keep on looking for better and better, thats a recipe for disaster. It sounds very simple, and straight-forward, but being dissatisfied in a marriage, either due to emotional, financial or sexual issues, does not automatically mean, you have to look outside to immediately find another mate. Many times you have to work it out with your spouse.
I am sorry for being so philosophical about this issue, but in many respects, this issue requires us to step back and analyze ourselves and those around us from not merely a factual stand point, but essentially from a human dimension.
Well put Faisal.
I would like to raise a point on the issue however. You correctly mentioned that man and woman has lust and it is a natural instinct for a man to be attracted to a woman and vice versa. My point about this society is that it does not regulate these desires but instead pushes one to follow their desires much like animals who just do things on instinct.
Concepts of freedom rather than regulation are pushed. Sex is something that is pushed heavily through society. Pornography is the most popular thing on the net. Western society rather than regulating man's instinct pushes men to follow his desires. Concepts like Carpaedium and live life to the fullest have people obsessed with attaining pleasure and avoiding pain. Just do it, Obey your thirst. We are told to simply pleasure ourselves in this society without a thought about the afterlife. Therefore with the criteria being enjoyment there will be no self control as there is no reason to be under control because enjoyment is the goal.
Man is flawed and a corrupt society will cause further problems. Every man has sexual instincts etc but these instincts can be regulated and repressed and that was done back in the times of Islam in which society did not encourage the corrupt ideas we see today. Now all we have is encouragment to have sex etc. and as Western society inflitrates our lands corrupt behaviour is becoming more normal. Picture a boy in the West who is a virgin, it is seen as something wrong and something to be mocked. That could very soonn be Pakistan and that is why my discussion is based a lot around society as society can control how a man or woman acts.
sheikh.
To what I understand, this discussion is about marital fidelity and not necessarily about promiscuous behavior.
I agree with you that pre-marital sex and affairs is very common in the western society, and is neither discouraged nor frowned upon. However, a vast majority of people in the west, still take marital vows pretty seriously. Marital infidelity is still frowned upon and therefore movies like "Unfaithful" continue to make waves and are claimed as groundbreakers. Once they tie the knot, they are still supposed to stick to their spouses and not constantly look outside for fun liaisons. True, they have high divorce rates, but that itself indicates, that rather then cheating on their spouse, they'd take a clean break and search for another person with no marital knot binding them.
There is a small minority of people in the west, called "Swingers" whose life-style is similar to what you alluded to... but they do not represent the society at large. At least that is my reading.
Therefore, I will resist the urge to put the whole blame on western society, and instead suggest that we take responsibility for our own actions and realize the short-comings of human beings and work around them to make our lives more peaceful and fulfilling. Those of us, who are living amidst western culture do have added responsibilities vis a vis moral values, but JonyBr lives in Pakistan, and his experiences are based on the people who live in Pakistan. Just goes to show that this is merely human nature and can be found anywhere.
Faisal let me give you an example.
A fifty year old man with his fifty year old wife stop at a traffic light. An eighteen year old girl with a perfect figure dressed in barely nothing crosses the road. The man stares at her and thinks to himself how inferior his own wife is compared to the younger woman.
This is where you get mid life crisises and marriages that fail to last. There are however many reasons why one would have an affair but yet stay with their original spouse. The reason for affairs are due to lack of excitement and desire to be young and free etc. The reason to stay in a marriage while having an affair is security and money. An affair is just that, fun. A marriage is more serious and those that stay in a marriage stay for security and children etc but at the same time see no problem in having fun as society pushes this, and as the example i started the thread with, push men and woman into infidelity.
You mention Pakistan, my points regarding Pakistan are that in Pakistan certian issues are becoming more and more acceptable due to the West's cultural influx there.
At the end of the day i agree with you that it is man's shortcomings that make him take part in an affair but at the same time i feel it is important to realise the role of a corrupt society which pushes concepts of freedom etc and does not regulate man's instincts but does the opposite. No doubt man can live without cheating on their spouse but in a society based on superficial things and materialism it becomes increasingly difficult.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by s_H_e_I_k_H: *
Faisal let me give you an example.
A fifty year old man with his fifty year old wife stop at a traffic light. An eighteen year old girl with a perfect figure dressed in barely nothing crosses the road. The man stares at her and thinks to himself how inferior his own wife is compared to the younger woman.
This is where you get mid life crisises and marriages that fail to last.
[/QUOTE]
Any number of psychiatrists will tell you that there is absolutely nothing wrong with "thinking" about such things, because these feelings are very very normal and are part of every human being.
However, if that 50-yr old actually decides to leave his wife and chase that 18-yr old, because he feels discontent, then he has some real problems. Marriage is not merely about sex or physical attraction, its a host of many things. Sex and physical attraction do play a major part, and therefore, both partners should continue to make themselves attracted towards each other (even as part of our religion). But that can only go to a certain age, after which other factors start playing a more dominant role. In case of 50-yr old couples, for example, it is the companionship, children (and grand-children) and memories of half their ages spent together.
Feeling attraction towards another person is not limited to western society, and, in my opinion, provocative clothes may not be that big of an issue in the overall scheme of things. As I said earlier, feelings of attraction or admiration is nothing criminal, but to lose control on every such attraction is definitely a sign of gross immaturity which is neither appreciated in western society nor in eastern society.
I never said there was anything wrong for the man to be attracted as that is a natural human reaction.
It would be nice if issues like this didn't matter but in reality with sex pushed in the way it is even men in their twilight years are looking for a bit on the side. What you speak about is how it should be between an old couple but in reality is that really the case in this society? For a fifty year old man to have sex with an eighteen year old is an achievement based on this society's criteria. The concept of being young again and the fear of getting old is pushed in this society rather than how it should be, seeing getting old as a natural progression and living according to that. Rather we have older people trying to be younger rather than accepting their age and part of feeling young can involve infidelity.
Feeling of admiration or attraction is not criminal but natural as you said but that immaturity you speak about is norm in Western society as people simply live life to the fullest, wanting to pleasure themselves as much as possible rather than being mature as you speak about. So in my opinion losing control is quite normal in this society and in a society where freedom is pushed immaturity and uncertainty are going to be normal and I believe that that is something that Western society propogates, the idea of pleasure no pain, individualism, living life ti the fullest etc. There is no idea of morality in Western society just pleasure.
Western society is a catalyst for infidelity due to the values of freedom and immorality that it pushes.
Well, all I can say, is that each of us form our opinions, based on the experiences we go through and the examples we see around each other. You are in England (as per your profile) so I can only surmise that you have seen enough examples of such rampant immorality around you to come out with statements like "There is no idea of morality in Western society just pleasure."
Fortunately, where I live, and to what I have observed, things do not appear as bad. I will be the last person to defend the moral decay of western culture, but at the same time, I believe that for every instance of marital infidelity and for every instance of a 50-yr old guy chasing after an 18-yr old girl, there are thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of other couples who are living perfectly happy and normal marital lives, content with each other, in the same western society.
Unfortunately, I neither have any figures to back up my claims, nor I feel it is necessary in the context of this discussion. As I said, I presume you base your opinions on what you have seen, and I base it on my own experiences. There is no right or wrong answer here. Merely opinions and differing points of view.
Faisal you raise a good point.
I do live in an environment where Muslims not just the Kafir are out living their lives simply to gain lifes pleasures without any idea of afterlife or any reason to not follow their desires so that will effect my views and naturally your views will reflect your upbringing.
I do however agree with you that there are indeed many fanilies that do live happily without the complications raised in this post. The point i raised was simply about what Western society propogates and the ideas such as freedom, basic capitalism which ruin people. Not every person will swear by it and take it to the extremes like the Swingers that you speak of but many we take many of our ideas from Western society and it could go a long way to explain why there is the infidelity that the thread speaks about.
I am not saying that everyone takes things to these extremes but i believe that a corrupt society creates corrupt people.
Even from an Islamic perspective in the Quran, the reference escapes me if someone can help. Allah speaks about the dangers that Muslims will face if they live in a society not governed by Islam saying it will lead to polytheism and other things which escpae me at this time.
Society makes people and the society we have currently is a corrupt one and i agree with you that not everyone is corrupt but for those that are corrupt i feel the person is responsible as Allah has made us capable of not doing haram otherwise it wouldn't be haram but when looking to explain an issue like infidelity the catalyst is clear.
....
im just gonna say onething: ever since the world existed, such stuff has been going on... mayb its happeineg 2 a higher degree now.. than it was b4... but still u grew up in a society where these things were happening... but u didnt perform these deeds.. the saem way v can give the sorta training r parents gave us.. n hope ......
but.. one things is really bothering me.. on how ppl here r blaming MARRIED women.. dun take me worng.. im NOT sayin that its ok.. but wat difference does it make if a MARRIED or an UN-MARRIED women is having an affair with someone...???... is it acceptable 4 an unmarried owmen ... since she doesnt have a husband yet????
Wow, sounds like a big debate going on here, I will come back later & read all the replies after thursday when my this weeks classes are done.
What I wonder is... how do they find the time?
This all happens because of lack of satisfaction and want for more and more in everything.
Hey Shirin I was also wonderin the same that how do get tons of free time on their hands.
Let me clear one thing first. as some ppl said why i m taking those female’s side … well i m not, i m just saying that all the stories i have witnessed are from the point of views of guys & those guys are not sincere not even in this relation, they are doing it just becos they want to do it, …maybe the same goes on female side too but that i dont have witnessed so i wont say.
Second answer to those who want me to change my company. …well like u all said one have to live in this world & there is no place i can hide…so where should i go? & besides i wasnt talking about like friends, but the ppl i know, ppl like in uni, in neighbor hood, ppl in ur class…how can one run from them?
Comming back to the point, Mostly i have noticed married ladies have gone for younger guys, or say it younger guys have gone after married ladies, & the reasons could be many, guys at 23-27 have considrably more time for this thing than older guys, its more effective when young charming 25 yr old guy told 32 yr old lady that u look so beautiful, when her actual husband at 38 is busy doing 12 hour job for feeding her & kids etc. & have never said that thing from past 5 years & so on.
it just dont have one reason why it happens. there are plenty of reasons, in each case maybe all of them had influnce or maybe just one or two. from personal observation, analysis & common sense i came up with some of the reasons which i m going to discuss, i maybe am wrong, its just personal opinion & bassed on pakistan environment.
1. Media/Cable
Call me an old minded person, but yes i think it is one of the reason, can any of u name one Indian TV drama which has other subject than the one we are talking about here? they are all about relationships like this, revenge, etc.
When u see the same thing from past two decades it do influnce u some how.
2. When u think u are smart
Yes, this is very strange, it used to be in pakistan when u try to talk to a married lady (Intensions are like that & u start with offer of friendship) they used to just run away, dont answer, get mad at u etc, now things have changed, girls have became more polite, sensible, & smart or say it aqal mand.
They try to convince you, its nmot right, i m married, u r younger, & obiviously guy wont understand, but ok be my friend, or i cant live or what ever & with that u r so beautiful & nice etc… what i want to say is, it better to just get riod of him by not answering, asmore as u talk u r actually helping urself being trapped (although u think u r doing good & trying to help the young guy with his first like on me)
3. Communication problem of Love
Typically, i have seen alot of complaints of my parents are like this & that, they dont love me, my inlaws are like this, i just never understand why would parents dont love their kids ? maybe its just the communication problem, (remebring the movie kabhi khushi kabhi gum, Amitab at end told Shahrukh “mein tum se buhut pyar kerta hoon, bus kah nahi saka”) in ur whole life no one told u he/she loves u, even tho they did but for somereasons u thought they didnt, & at end some one just pops in & tell u he loves u soo much sisnce the moment he saw u,…BANG
4. Just playing around
Agreed with Ana on chat it all starts from chatting fun flirt, i m not serious i m just having fun, then u want more fun & then more.
similarly samething goes on real life parties & clubs.
5. Religion
This part i guess is already well discussed so i will leave it,
There were more i was thinking to write but right now cant recall them
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Any number of psychiatrists will tell you that there is absolutely nothing wrong with "thinking" about such things, because these feelings are very very normal and are part of every human being.
However, if that 50-yr old actually decides to leave his wife and chase that 18-yr old, because he feels discontent, then he has some real problems. Marriage is not merely about sex or physical attraction, its a host of many things. Sex and physical attraction do play a major part, and therefore, both partners should continue to make themselves attracted towards each other (even as part of our religion). But that can only go to a certain age, after which other factors start playing a more dominant role. In case of 50-yr old couples, for example, it is the companionship, children (and grand-children) and memories of half their ages spent together.
Feeling attraction towards another person is not limited to western society, and, in my opinion, provocative clothes may not be that big of an issue in the overall scheme of things. As I said earlier, feelings of attraction or admiration is nothing criminal, but to lose control on every such attraction is definitely a sign of gross immaturity which is neither appreciated in western society nor in eastern society.
[/QUOTE]
Faisal are you saying all this as a certified psychiatrist? A sociologist or is it just your opinion? becuase it sure seems like a bit of pontification.
Are there clinical or behavioral studies done that show losing control on every attraction is a sign of immaturity?
In the end it is between the husband and the wife.
.
revenge and competition...I think these two are the main cause of this type of behavior you're seeing these days..
JonyBr, you raise an interesting topic :k:
Let me add a few thoughts of my own to this:
Firstly, married women are just as guilty as the men that they have affairs with. If anything, they are more guilty since mostly, they have “baggage” to take into consideration (ie. spouse, children, extended family, etc). Affairs, in and of themselves, constitute a wrong that has no basis in justification whatsoever. By definition, an affair implies having a relationship without the knowledge of the spouse. In order for the infidelity to occur, one or more these conditions need apply:
a) lack of self-confidence/ insecurity
b) lack of morals/ethics/ weak value system
c) unhappiness/supposedly no-way-out of the situation thinking
If a person is confident and secure, there is no need to stay in a, what I’m assuming, an unhappy marriage. He/she needs to say bye-bye to the bad marriage as soon as possible and get back on track with positive direction in life which necessarily excludes having extra-marital relations. Once this internal sense of self-worth and the need for happiness are realized, all else tends to fall into place as in the proverbial domino effect. Good/happy/positive thought and behavior triggers more good/happy/positive thought and behavior. It’s a proven fact. Values can play a role in this scenario but, you know, even the most well-raised individual can cheat on his/her spouse. So, moral upbringing is great but it doesn’t necessarily guarantee a life free of certain actions, as in extra-marital relations.
Secondly, we speak of these perfect Islamic states, the subjects of which can do no wrong. Although I strongly believe that Islamic countries fare better than most as regards things of this nature–infidelity, abortion, homosexuality, etc., these States aren’t perfect either. Plus, the western elements of extreme secularism and liberalism aren’t helping matters. Why does the world seem to think that western ideology and lifestyle is so superior??? How shallow can we human be to blindly follow such thinking when there are so many existing ideologies and ways of life that deserve much more credit? If anything, western mentality seems to be tainting the mentality of other traditions, such as is the case with Islamic nations. And hence the mentality of cheating on one’s spouse as being the norm is looked upon very nonchalantly. How sad indeed!!!
Moona, have u considered that some marriages are very difficult to get out of, due to children, resources, etc.. ? Or the women who have tremendous family pressures to stay in failed marriages? And usually it's those type of women, who perceive that they have no other choice but to indulge in extra-marital affairs, who end up doing it. It's societal pressure that keeps bad marriages alive more than anything else.