Re: When Women Emerge.
Acha to women should trash wordly education altogether? Please clarify.
Re: When Women Emerge.
I see no one saying that learning deen is inferior to any other knowledge.
Point is that other form of knowledge is also impoprtant for women to learn. My post mentioned the reason. Not just to earn more money etc. its the duty of any islamic society to teach men women and children all sort of knwledge. Besides in purest way of thinking, there should not be any distinction between so called islamic or wordly or 'unislamic' knowledge.
Every information is islamic if it benefits human being.
Re: When Women Emerge.
I am absolutely opposed to those so called islamic and 'educated' men who mary muslim beautiful girls with education as high as being a doctor-engineer-scientist etc. and after marriage make them stay home.
Why didn't they mary an aalimah to begin with? kind of hypocriric act.
Re: When Women Emerge.
This article reminds me about the incident where Saudi women burned to death because the firemen were unable to save them in an effort to protect their "modesty".........
Re: When Women Emerge.
I am **for **women who get knowledge. What has been debated is how the women gain that knowledge. But If you don’t follow such methods when and only when Abiding by the Shariah, then there **is something wrong **with women going out in the world.
Secondly, A women who does totally devote her life to deeni knowledge, does not make her
and there are numerous examples of this.
So to make it obligatory upon women to study worldy affairs, is not right either.
Women have numerous status in Islam, but to be safeguarded they must adhere to the Sunnah of the Prophet Pbuh.
This thread is based on the commands on the Women in Islam> There can be just as well a thread on Men and commands upon them. So lets focus on women in Islam.
It was not a daily practice of the Mothers of the Ummah R.A. To take their kids out for a stroll in the park, and to just go for a walk around the neighbourhood in the times of Prophet pbuh.
They were told to screen from men. Not told to be Prisoned in a home. The Notion that most people defensively reiterate their stand on is the fact that when a women should be safeguarded at home, it means she is Prisoned by the Hakim of the House.
I don’t understand why people of such ideology are even replying here.
To be safeguarded from fitnah, especially in today’s time is a critical priority. And the Sunnah explains clearly the ways to go about it.
To reject the Sunnah, to mingle with opposite sex, and to dress innappropiately is not accepted in Islam.
Islam **does not **conform to a certain time frame.
Re: When Women Emerge.
Agreed completely. We need to have good protection and laws to promote equal oppurtunity for men and women to gain knowledge in Islamic ways.
Unnecesary walk for women specially alone without their mahram is not allowed and I completely agree with it.
Disagree completely.
There are no such things as “worldly affair or knowledge” which are prohibited in Islam for women but allowed for men.
Men are equally responsible of learning deen and any other knowledge as women.
There is just no distinction in Quranul hakeem when it talk about seeking knowledge for men and women and what kind.
yes Quran did say male have sort of supiriority in some ways over women but not in seeking knowledge context.
Yes we will have in general women weaker than men if they had little or no knowledge of outside world.
We need not to get emotional and adamant that since it was not happening 1500 years ago so it is not allowed. We need to stop LIVING in 1500 years ago lifestyle. We need to get the essence of Islamic teaching and APPLY that on to the current time.
There is nothing which would take away the responsibility from women to raise children as muslims. Also both men and women must guard each other from going stray when married.
The discussion is not going to be complete if we do not talk of the too much male dominant behaviour came from our societies, and other religions like christianity and hinduism.(I do not know much about Judaism to make a comment)
We have adopted male dominant behaviour and have used home made islam as a shield to selectively give more freedom to men over women. We are using selective quotes from Hadees and making our soicieties unbalanced and I have no hesitation in saying UNISLAMIC!
Re: When Women Emerge.
The article seems to suggest that women should live in constant fear of other humans when outside their homes and should allow these fears to restrict their behaviors. They should neglect all the good they can do for others simply because they fear all the bad that may come to them.
I wasn't aware that we were supposed to fear any being other than Allah SWT.
What would have happened if the Prophet (pbuh) and the men and women who followed him had lived in constant fear of those who wished to do them harm?
Re: When Women Emerge.
Damn What Happened???
Where is ther real Deedawar Bhai, What have you done to him???, Lekin Honestly for once you are actually making some sense.
Aejaz
Re: When Women Emerge.
LOL.....he was abducted by the aliens and they dropped ME instead!:)
I think I always tried to make sense. I have same or similar views on many issues as before.
Re: When Women Emerge.
No they don’t. You haven’t shown any kind of proof that all muslim women were commanded to stay in their homes and never leave them, whereas I on the other hand have given you plenty of evidence otherwise.
What a total shmuck.
Re: When Women Emerge.
claps really really loud so that everyone can hear and pay attention to this excellent and intelligent comment
Deedawar, I agree with everything you’re saying here. Mashallah, may Allah give you palaces made of pearls.
Re: When Women Emerge.
I will give more credibility to the Aliens Theory, coz You know this and I know this we have had a few head to head, and you have been like the Rock of Gibralter, never wanting to accept a Fact, and more importantly never accepting the need for changes.
The Highlighted Part of your statement clearly proves(Same or Similar Implies a change or second thoughts!!!), this Deedawar Bhai which has been put here by the Aliens, can adjust to realities and Facts and Circumstances, which is in fact a very good thing.
More power to the Aliens:D
Aejaz
Re: When Women Emerge.
I think you misunderstood the statement I made.
"it is not right either to make it **obligatory ( A MUST [SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE DONE OR THE END OF THE WORLD WILL COME]) **for people to push Women towards worldly knowledge over deen. "
No. Islam is pure from the start. It does not need to conform to today’s society.
Secondly, the article does not say that women must not get knowledge and that they should be prisoned at home. **Automatically thats what most of you resort too, because you feel its taking away your freedom to go out and express yourself in the world. **
Women have the right to get knowledge. But they can find other ways of achieving it then to go out to places where they can mingle with men and indulge in other fitnah. NO one is depriving the rights of women in that regard.
But to justify it by disregarding Quranic Ayahs, is wrong.
First you tell me where i’ve said women should never leave their homes no matter what, and they are prisoners of Men and men must ridicule them and make them their slaves. Because from what I understand, this is the notion you’re getting, when the idea being presented is totally something else. You probably had some experiences in life where you had such contact with these types of circumstances, but you have to be more objective about this.
Your evidence? Like I said, one day of Aisha r.a. (which you did not provide in context, you just gave the hadith, and the explanation of the hadith) does not suffice for the entire life that she lived.
Please provide me with the context, circumstances they were faced with to do certain things.
Instead of being subjective, please be more objective so I can respect your posts better.
When a women is the only household head, she has the right to go out make a living get knowledge as logn as she is in the bounds of shariah.
Thats a context and a circumstance.
Now that i’ve further made it easy for you, please provide me with some research on their lives, and why they did things they did.
Re: When Women Emerge.
The article does not suggest that.
Thats what you wanted to interpret the article as. Where as it shows what happens to them when they leave (remember its targeted for muslimahs) to go to these places.
It does not say that a Alimah in training can’t leave her house to go to an institution to study and gain knowledge because there is bad in the world.
Please do try to understand the context it is coming out of. Don’t just assume its saying the world is fitnah so no good can be done.
They did not, and since you’re assuming the article tells us to fear everything, you’re giving urself a tough time by understanding this.
The first martyr of islam was the Respected Sumayya (r.a.) She stood up to Abu Jahl- she was **not **in fear. Allah be pleased with her.
We’re not. Unfortunately some people do.
They fear the world for example, more than what Allah swt has for them.
Re: When Women Emerge.
Crescent are you going to send ur daughters to high school?
Re: When Women Emerge.
[QUOTE]
Yet do we really know what goes on out there? The situation is indeed shocking to say the least.
[/quote]
The sensationalist attitude of lines like this make it hard to take it seriously. The tone becomes one of paranoia rather than insight. Reminds me of watching a FOX News or Current Affair report. Something trashy and trivial, rather than thoughtful.
[quote]
According to the American Psychological Association sexual harassment is extremely widespread in the work place. "It touches the lives of 40 to 60 percent of working women, and a similar proportion of female students in colleges and universities. In Texas, for example, after having been cast out of the home, the women finally want to return to their rightful place. According to an article in the Texas Poll (21/2/93), one third of all Texas women have experienced sexual harassment at work. According to the article "more than half said the incidents contributed to them leaving their jobs or wanting to."
Indeed the outside world has become a jungle. Here again, let the statistics of the west speak for themselves.
Research conducted in August 1990 revealed that 1 in 4 college women have been attacked by a rapist and 1 in 7 have been raped. This should be considered together with the fact that only 7% of all rapes are reported to the police and more than 50% of the victims do not tell anybody about their ordeal . Thus these figures are only the tip of the ice-berg. (A Criminological Study; Koss and Woodruff).
...Similarly, "academic" institutions also paint a horrid picture. The SCC report states that a survey at Rhodes University revealed that 63% of female academics experienced sexual harassment. Also out of one hundred students surveyed at Rhodes, six said that they had been 'offered higher marks for sexual favours.' The report also states that at the University of Natal (Durban) "one in four females reported experiencing sexual harassment `occasionally' (which means that though it does not occur frequently, it happens on an on going basis).
Let alone in other places of work, even the highest office in the country has not escaped the sexual harassment of women. According to a Daily News report (9/12/94) "several women MPs and parliamentary staff have complained of sexual harassment by male MPs." The report quoted the speaker of parliament as saying that the alleged perpetrators were "from more than one party." It was also reported that women MPs feared going to certain parts of the parliamentary complex.
[/quote]
So we should let the bigots, racists, and sexists win? Just because they will make it difficult to do something that is important to us means that we should give up? Jihad is about personal struggle for stronger imaan and understanding. What is worthwhile is rarely easy. Just because it is "hard" does not mean it is "wrong."
[quote]
Besides the above, due to the free intermingling of men and women in the work place and elsewhere, it seems that legitimate children are becoming an endangered species, especially in the U.S. as well as in other countries. In the article titled "The Truth About Feminism," Kenneth R. Pangborn writes that "in the United States one child in four is illegitimate (1 in 3 in Florida)." Also in those children born out-of-wedlock, more than 50% have birth certificates where the father is described as "unknown"!
...When this is the situation in the highest office of the country, what can be said of elsewhere? Yet, despite this shocking state of affairs, many Muslims still ignore the injunctions of the Qur'an and actually propagate that women should be working "shoulder-to-shoulder" with men. **Numerous Muslim girls have married men who are out of the fold of Islam due to the contact that developed in high schools, universities and in the work place. All the parents of these girls were adamant that "My daughter will never do such a thing." That woeful day however came when they had to swallow hard on these words and wash it down with a flood of tears - but to no avail. The apple of their eye had become the wife of some John, Peter or Reddy.
Nonetheless, the most baffling part is that in spite of many of these aspects being common knowledge, numerous parents continue to send their daughters to high schools, universities, and into the working world. When these parents are spoken to with regards to the Imaan-snatching dangers out there, their simple response is: "My daughter will never do such a thing." The problem however is that in the "melting pot" environments of the outside world, only those with Imaan as firm as mountains can withstand the onslaught. Simply no rationalizations whatsoever can sanction women being cast into the lion's den.
[/quote]
These statistics are indeed shocking, and if true, very sad. But assuming a woman will begin having sex out of wed-lock or marrying men of other faith just because she is educated and has a career is really ludicrous. Treat women with respect and love, and they will return it. Treat them like crap, and many will see themselves like crap and/or will turn away. Sacrificing a female's education because of some unvalidated fear is really sad and unfortunate.
[quote]
Perhaps some readers may feel that all this is very far away in the U.S.. Hence it should not concern us. Actually we should be extremely concerned. In South Africa SEVEN OUT OF TEN (70%) women encounter sexual abuse in the working world (Natal on Saturday 25/3/95).
Yes, it is a reality, though in most cases the victims never mention it to anyone. According to a survey carried out by the Student Counselling Centre (SCC) at the University of Natal (Durban), "of these incidents (of sexual harassment) as many as 80% are not reported." Rather, the victims would even deny it, for fear of reprisals.
[/quote]
As we know, such incidents are hardly limited to the working world. Many women encounter mental and sexual abuse at home, and are ashamed to admit it.
Re: When Women Emerge.
Sahar02 The article displays some of the fitnah the world is engaged in. It provides the reasons why one must safeguard the women. It does not state don't do anything, it says "look at all these things going on in the world, this is what you really want them to face?". Its the moral reasoning that its trying to provide.
reasons why they should be safeguarded. ANd if you believe safeguarding women in islam is "locking them up in homes beating them, treating them like they don't deserve rights to education, knowledge, good life, etc etc " then thats your belief, and something that is not shared by the Ullema-e-haqq, and other muslims.
Lydiya - I was thinking about that, and there are numerous madarasas that can give you equal knowledge along with knowledge of deen. This way she can be learned not only about the world, but the Deen of Allah swt. She does not necessarily have to go to a modern highschool to get knowledge. Alternatives are available.
Plus I would advise her to be more shariah abiding than to walk around in threads :) (which by the way is just not acceptable in islam)
Re: When Women Emerge.
I don’t call that moral reasoning. I call that scaring people into submission. Besides, the reasoning is flawed. By the same reasoning, I could quote tons of statistics about domestic violence and say, therefore, women should not get married and not stay at home.
It’s ludicrous both ways.
I know what Islam says, and I’m not worried about how Islam tells men to safeguard women. I am concerned about how Muslims choose to apply that safeguarding. And why.
Re: When Women Emerge.
You’ve completely ignored my question.
It is also the case that men may NOT expose themselves to females who they are not Meheram of. Sooooo…do tell…why are men allowed to work in mixed environments?
Simply stating that wasn’t the subject matter of this article is a cop-out. Explain.
The only logical conclusion is that both, men and women, are not allowed to work here in the West. Anything else is a double standard and hypocrtiical stance.
There is much food for thought in that article, but it applies to both men and women. Simply suggesting we drop out of society at large (this article suggests only women do it, logically though men should be obliged to do the same) is a bit too simple.
Re: When Women Emerge.
Them putting you ‘into’ is your understanding. The article suggest otherwise.
Its not a question about How muslims choose to apply that safeguarding. how to apply it has already been established. Depending on your Fiqh and madhab.
And the answer to your why has also been explained. All you have to do is go to your local Fuqhi, or atleast research on it.