When should disciplining start?

Re: When should disciplining start?

P2red, youre absolutely right....no way can you start at age 7. Kids are 5 when they start kindergarten and they are expected to be able to follow direction, routine and proper behavior. I also beleive that a "diaper swat" can do more good than harm - one of my 3 is strong willed to the extreme and this is the only thing that worked. It only took once or twice- after that, we were able to reinforce with timeout or taking toy/privelege away but if we didnt use this tactic, we'd still be really struggling with him.

Then...we have a moroccan family in our school district, they have a son who is in my middle son's class. The mom and dad are kind of new to the country, speak english but have very different outlook than the majority of the parents here...I guess they conform to the "no discipline till age 7 rule". ANYway, the kid is outta control, gets sent to the principals office often, has been sent home occasionally and is generally a huge disruption to his classroom.

You dont need to beat the heck outta them, you need to teach them. They need structure, they need to learn that negative action causes negative consequences (no, not a beating but perhaps a timeout or no favorite tv show today), and they need to learn these things from the time they can walk.

Re: When should disciplining start?

the best way to teach children Dicipline is by parents talking to them, if they have done something wrong, the parents need's to talk to them and tell them what they did is wrong and why. The younger this is done the better.....

be loving, But firm at the same time....

blah blah blah........

Too many assumptions here, seriously. Just because those parents wear different clothes to you and to others, you've started assuming that they must be following the rule of no disciplining until 7.

Giving love until the age of 7 means, showing no anger to kids nor beating them nor forcing them to do anything but directing them towards it with what amuses their mind, in kindergartens there should be lots of unstructured play for children rather than forcing them not to sit, stand, speak, wee until they're told.
And this is what most schools do in Europe [unstructured play until they're seven] except Britain and those kids are much better at learning and behaving than others. Britain is following a totally different rule may be following USA by taking exams from 6 years old.

And that boy in your son's class, probably he doesn't get enough love from his parents, probably he doesn't want to go to schoool, probably he's bored, probably he's being bullied and being mocked by other kids in his class because he's different from them, probably he's finding it hard to settle down in new country among new people........there's so many factors you can think of.

I would allow my kids to share my bed if they want to until they're seven.....3 of them sleep with me while my hubby in different bedroom, my son age 4 has now started to ask for his own bed now and i'll get him one..........but never ever I let them feel insecure or deprived of love and attention, no not until the age of 7.

First, when I said that the family is "kind of" new to the country, that means they've been here a few years. Their son was too young to remember the country in which he was born. The parents do not wear different clothes, they look just like any other parent at school. I spoke with them a few times while waiting for school to get out, otherwise I'd not know these extra details.

The boy did not get bullied, he actually was a bully himself - which is the reason for him getting sent home a few times. Our school district has a "zero tolerance" policy about bulllying.

Perhaps he doesnt get enough love at home but the mother appeared to be a very loving mom the times I saw her at school. Couldnt read the father. I did overhear the teacher talking to them one time telling them that he needs to learn structure, needs to learn respect and how to listen. My son told me the types of things that the boy would do - stand on top of tables and throw toys, take a paint-loaded paintbrush and paint other kids clothes or faces (this actually happened to my son twice), take toys away from other kids during free time. All kids can do naughty things from time to time. But when told to stop, this kid would defiantly answer "no".

So....who is making assumptions here?

The only assumption I made here IMHO is that he gets insufficient structure and discipline at home, because thats how it looks to me. And I think its a pretty fair assumption. Structure is actually a form of discipline. And I imagine that a child without either structure or discipline would be just like that boy. Anyway, thats why I thought the parents may be following the "7 year" rule because otherwise why would they let their kid behave this way.

Re: When should disciplining start?

What is Disicpline to pakistani people, coz im a bit confused on why u would only teach children dicipline at the age of 7?

Mirch how old was ur daughter, when she got the measles?

My point is if you tech children Dicipline from a young age, ur child will know and understand boundaries, what is/not acceptable.....

Re: When should disciplining start?

"What is Disicpline to pakistani people, coz im a bit confused on why u would only teach children dicipline at the age of 7?"

I think there can be confusion over this....

the parents that I spoke of from my son's class, they (appeared to) take it literally that there should be no discipline till age 7....

Hareem, I think, disciplines her children since it sounds like they are well-behaved and well adjusted (sorry to make even more assumptions lol!) But any time a parent teaches a child not to do a certain thing or to do a certain thing at a certain time...thats discipline (IMHO).

There are different ways to discipline - structuring their lives. Using time-outs. Spanking. And each parent disciplines in their own way.

I have a feeling that some desis take the word discipline to mean beating.

Ok, now I;m making lots of assumptions lol! :)

Re: When should disciplining start?

^Spanking or beating whatever................not before the age of 7 or may be 10.

And this is coming from Islamic perspective not Pakistani or American.

Re: When should disciplining start?

:smack:

Pardon?

I’ve already explained what i meant by " no discipline "…

Giving love until the age of 7 means, showing no anger to kids nor beating them nor forcing them to do anything but directing them towards it with what amuses their mind.

if you disagree that’s fine for me.

Hareem I think (although here I go making assumptions again) that the :smack:
was more directed at the tone and the bit about me making assumptions when (if you go back and re-read), its actually not me making the majority of the assumptions lol! And even though you appear in your tone and some of your words to completely disagree with me, I think that our parenting style is actually very similar. :wink:

Sorry to get a bit off-topic but… another of your assumptions that I didnt address is the comment about education in US…actually, kindergarten is very different from your picture of it. There is a general structure to their day but there is a really good amount of unstructured play and learning time. There is no testing at all (except for when a child is obviously behind and may need speech therapy, OT or PT) and that goes for 1st and 2nd grade as well. Havent been to later grades yet so not sure about there…

Anyway, in US the early grades structure their day in general…they begin with free time. Then they have a “morning meeting” to talk about what the day will be like (maybe its gym day or library day. What is the weather? What they will learn about in science, math etc.) Then they go off to “activity stations” where they split into small groups and have different activities (science experiment, learning letters, learning numbers etc etc) and they rotate so that everyone gets to each station. They have story time, lunch time, playground time each day. As far as not standing, sitting, speaking until told…of course there are limits…If the teacher is reading a story, interruptions and talking is discouraged. But the teachers absolutely make every attempt to foster free thinking and ideas. The kids are just taught to express themselves in turn and politely. If a child needs to use the bathroom, they go when they need to go.

I cant imagine that Britian’s early grades are so very different. If you have a completely unstructured day…well that would mean that the kids are sent into a room and allowed to do whatever they want…

Now where did I mention " complete unstructured day " .

Anyway back to the topic, I mentioned only one element (no discipline before 7 which is in my understanding means spanking or hitting or forcing the kid to learn or act) from so many points regarding raising children.

There’s whole thing/package that we have to follow along with following this element/point…for example their sleeping and eating routine.
point is you have to be with your kid (or any other adult who can love the child with sincereity and not for money) all the time before he’s clever enough to distinguish between right and wrong and that’s usually after the age of 6.

Re: When should disciplining start?

"Now where did I mention " complete unstructured day " ."***


You wrote: "And this is what most schools do in Europe [unstructured play until they're seven]"

These are your words, perhaps you didnt mean exactly what you wrote because "unstructured play until they're seven" would create little monsters lol!

As for the actual points that I was trying to make, apparently they sailed way over your head or you simply dont want to respond.... :)

I think you are again completely misunderstanding the concept of "no descipline before 7" , you're taking it as "no teaching or no exposing to manners".
I can give the example of salaat, until the age of 7 we encourage our child to pray by praying ourselves in front him, after 7 we formally start to teach him all the actions and sayings of prayer and encourage him to pray for 5 times but if he doesn't we can't force him until he reaches the year 10 then we can force him read salaat and even beat him slightly or spank just to humiliate him.

Same goes with other obligations and manners. But I believe there will be hardly any need for beating or spanking them when they grow up if they had a complete, nurtured and loving upbringing in early childhood

I wrote in the sentence before this "lots of unstructured play"....I never wrote "complete unstructured play".

They don't start teaching (reading and writing them formally until they're seven but only through games and play.

I call taking kids to the woods and let them splash in puddles (with waterproof clothes and boots on of course) unstructured play.....I don't know how can it turn them into monsters. lol

yes i totally disagree with ur statement, im a behaviour coordinator, so i know what im talking about......

Dicipline should NEVER mean beating ur child, and if you teach ur child right from wrong at a young age, then it should never come to this stage......

so you're a behaviour coordinator and you believe we should show our anger to little children if they pick their nose or hit other child?

plz dont put word's in to my mouth,

if i turn the question back to u and ask you, what if at the age of 7 the child's behaviour in uncontrollable then what u gonna do, to the child u have only given lov to for the past 7 years, start beating them?

Re: When should disciplining start?

ok so now we’re cooking with oil and getting somewhere!! :slight_smile:

So Hareem you say

"I think you are again completely misunderstanding the concept of “no descipline before 7” , you’re taking it as “no teaching or no exposing to manners”.

When you teach a child manners, I consider that to be discipline. When you impose a schedule on a child (certain time for breakfast, lunch, dinner, play, learning) thats discipline. Here is a definition of the word from Wikipedia:

To discipline thus means to instruct a person or animal to follow a particular code of conduct, or to adhere to a certain “order.” Consequently, "in the field of child development, discipline refers to methods of modeling character and of teaching self-control and acceptable behavior.

I think the reason that we are at odds over all of this is the misunderstandings of words and their meanings. Like in your recent reply, you talk about splashing in puddles and how this will not turn them into monsters…of course youre right - in a certain context. But allow a child to splash ALL day in puddles cause they want to…yup that will turn them into monsters. Children need some structure in their day - right from the start and theres no denying this.

Your method of teaching prayer to your children is beautiful. But you cannot apply that approach to things like … say your child refuses to eat. Or to listen to you when you very lovingly tell him/her not to stick their finger in the electrical outlet. Unless you are always within arm’s reach of your child, the potential for accidents are uncountable lol! Parents need to use stern voice sometimes, no doubt about that. What if your child decides that they dont like Grandpa and they decide that the best way to express this is to bite him? Manners need to be enforced in some way…again not to beat them up but perhaps send them on a time out…you must have faced situations like this at least once or twice I’m sure.

Discipline in no way means to beat them up, hit or humiliate them…it simply means to teach them. I have no misunderstanding about this at all…mine are all well-behaved due to the style in which I’ve been raising them. The other family which I spoke of do not discipline their child (apparently) at all and he has huge issues and thats what I was trying to point out…(again, see the definition of the word discipline).

You get really defensive, to the point that you dont really see that we are pretty much in agreement on the best ways to raise a child.