When is rape not rape?

[el_topo]

Re: When is rape not rape?

The Assange case. My understanding is that** in Swedish law**: while sex may be consensual, if it is not consensually unprotected, then it counts as rape. Having sex with a person while they sleep, also counts as rape. Call me Draconian, but I think they are interesting laws.

That said, he has not been formally charged with rape, or indeed with anything yet. In my opinion, sexual coercion (or as Jafri put it so succinctly earlier, sex by surprise) rather than rape is probably going to be the likelier charge. I don’t see why he has thus far fought against extradition. Just man up, and go face the music.
The women in the case are facing all sorts of crap from self proclaimed internet warriors/hackers, regardless of whether they are innocents or Mata Haris, that is wrong.

@diwana

In marriage, there is no room to say no to spouse unless there is a legit reason. That is what I said. If you love someone, care for the one you married to, then better do something to satisfy his or her need. That’s the position I have.

Dude, that sounds like emotional blackmail.

@diwana

Where else spouse should go for satisfying need then?

Hand. Tissue.

[diwana]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Look diwana, I don't have a personal hardon against you. The thing is, you are so offensively jaahil that I avoid reading your posts, but if I ever accidentally do, it makes me want to slap you across your face. Which, being a civil person, I obviously won't (and unfortunately can't). So I will leave it at that. Oh and I didn't mind your 'background' insult, for you quite obviously don't know any better. Cheers.

So, instead of apologizing, you resorted to answer like that.

Look Jaanwar, the feeling is mutual. I wanted to kick you on your comment where you might get hurt for weeks but you were hiding behind the internet.

One thing you need to learn: Do not bring someone's family member or spouse (specially a wife) like that in to discussion ever specially in real life. You might get hurt. Only low class people do that. You deserved the 'insult' after making such a low level comment.

[Sehrysh]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Goodness gracious me! I think people have forgotten how to read - I said keep the discussion mature and constructive - no slanging matches :ASA:

@diwana - truth be told, your posts imply the following:

1. A woman must have been forcibly subdued for it to be rape. If she did not fight back then she must have consented.
2. The burden is on the woman to prove that she was raped, otherwise assume that the man is innocent because there are sooooooooo many case of woman falsely accusing men of rape. The rape must be obvious - anything that falls outside your narrow definition of what rape is could not possibly be rape.
3. In a marital relationship a woman's purpose is satisfying her husband - woe to her if she denies her husband.

Gotta say, you come across as a misogynist. But hey, if that floats your boat...

[Sara516]

Re: When is rape not rape?

@diwana

Just explained above.

Read the middle part of his post. "What if someday your wife ass rapes you with a strap-on, " what does it show? What kind of people talk like that?

The same type of people who say marital rape is a myth created by so called educated modern women. :k:

Seriously dude, underneath all the so-called “logic” and “reasoning” that you think only you possess, you’re still a jaahil with misogynistic and chauvanistic views.

[psyah]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Peace All

I think brother diwana is being misunderstood. I think Jafri's insight is quite useful here.

Let's replace the word "rape" with "surprise sex" ... woah please be patient with me ...

Surprise is either shocking or amusing, so let's say there is:

amusing surprise sex and shocking surprise sex

Ok now sex should have a general consent in place in Islam and other faiths a marriage represents the general consent for sex, people following other frameworks have less tangible forms of general consent, for example, they could tell people verbally "we are an item", they could be seen together in public so others understand them to be together. They could share a bed together, i.e. they sleep in the same room in the same space on a regular basis or on the basis that does not give rise to concern to the public at large who are at ease with the idea of their joint status.

When general consent is in place:

We can say that amusing surprise sex - healthy sexual adventure (1)
We can say that shocking surprise sex - rough and unfair, which translates to injustice to the partner (2)

When general consent is not in place:

We can say that amusing surprise sex - fornication and both persons are morally wrong, (if one partner chooses there is a possible case for rape accusation but requires investigation) (3)

We can say that shocking surprise sex - true rape (4)

Now each of these will have different levels of penalties/compensations, refer to the number references below:

(1) - Islamically if the general consent is in marriage this would be rewardable activity, if not in marriage then this is a major sin called zina, otherwise as an act where general consent other than marriage is enough then this is permissible.

(2) - Islamically if the situation took place in marriage this would be frowned upon, it would be cause for marriage to be broken, the doer would be sinful for inflicting harm on another person, but would not be accountable to the degree of zina, because the 'sex' part of the act was legal it was the 'rough' part that wasn't moral. Islamically if this happened where no marriage was in place even if general consent is there it would be considered as rape - see (4). In societies where general consent without marriage is enough then it can still be rape, which leaves the door open for alleged victims who have given general consent to create problems. This way the full punishment and dishonour may fall on a person convicted of rape. The possibility of injustice tending towards the accused increases as a result.

(3) - Islamically this is zina both are held accountable, in societies where general consent is enough, this is as though it is the same as (1).

(4) - Islamically this is rape, in societies where general consent is enough this would be called rape and the due punishment given to the rapist.

So even though (2) is wrong Islamically it is not the same as (4), "rape in marriage" should be called something else. Unjust sexual relations with wife or husband are not legally crimes in Shari'ah, but are moral ones and every moral crime is the cause for filing a divorce, there may even be an additional compensation that is required.

The case in question by OP would fall in either (2) or (3) and if (3) is proven then it could turn in to a (4) if enough evidence is available.

Thanks Jafri for the terminology, just in case it was copyright I gave reference to you ...

[hanibal]

Re: When is rape not rape?

One thing is for sure, This Viki leak guy seems to be noble one, no one can find any wrong doings from him except of these two rape-allegation...

Now he did raped US left-right and center and that is also without any condom... now that is proven luckily he is not from Pakistan otherwise the allegation could have been different...

Now this rape allegation true or not, is not the issue, it is leaks which is the real pain-in-the-butt of USA authorities and then transfered to Swedish one, who are now becoming the laughing stock... had there been immediate legal action.. but like our earlier darling Monica, something kept these two women to wait & think for four long months before making up their minds...

[_RestLess]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Not the rape allegations, but I believe the founder of wikileaks should be put through a fair trail on the charges of stealing, trafficking, and publicizing official private information. It's a form of internet terrorism, and if not dealt with carefully, can start a movement of hackers. Also, volatile private & official information/documents can put lives of many in danger.

[bebo]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Funny bit about sex by surprise and other alligation against Assange. The Colbert Report.

Comedy Central Shows & Movies - Watch on Paramount+

[diwana]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Explain this. From what I understood you are saying rape is a possibility between two people who married or not married. In other words rape is a possibility in marriage.

I have already given the answer. You need to read my posts carefully. Read also what Psyah Bro says above. :)

This is like saying: There is no such thing as 'marital abuse.' This is a myth. Marital is a word used to describe a marriage binding with a sense of respect. The other is a crime.

Diwana, I think it's clear that whenever people use the term 'marital rape', they are referring to an ACT or CONCEPT of forceful intercourse aka rape which happens between two people who are married to each other. Marital simply means 'of or related to marriage'. It is a neutral word. The word itself does not imply anything like 'respect, sense of commitment.' You are reducing it to semantics now when you yourself have said that if there is force and lack of consent, then it is rape, marriage or no marriage.

The term marital rape MAY be an oxymoron (if you, personally, would like to think that 'marital' automatically implies a harmonious, respectful binding) but calling it a myth is certainly not logical because it does happen.

So, do we agree on this: A husband can rape his wife.

?

?

You are confusing the term of rape with abuse. Not the same.

Marriage IS considered a general consent to have sex along with off course many other aspects of man and woman relationship including respect, care, love, raising a family etc etc. Add whatever you want there.

Rape is a heinous crime. Punishible severely by law. 'Abuse' has a wide variety of scenarios included.

princess im afraid we will never hear yes to that question...sigh i shall sleep now

You had the answer above and have answer by Psyah bro as well. Let me know what is not clear yet. No need o lose sleep over that. :)

[diwana]

Re: When is rape not rape?

@el_topo

…

Dude, that sounds like emotional blackmail.

Hand. Tissue.

1- Will not comment on Assange case. That is court to decide and those who know the case better.

2- No it is not emotional blackmail. Not for those who respect the needs of other partner in marriage. It is the the pre-requisite of a marriage relation to care for each other.

Only those who think that so called freedom is extended so much that sex can be denied to married partner WITHOUT A LEGIT reason, will be emotionally disturbed by this.

3- Hand, tissue?

Don’t you think that is an insult to a married partner that other partner has to derive pleasure from these methods other than the partner himself or herself?

And then we sit here and ‘intelligently’ discuss why the cheating and divorce rate is escalating.

@Sehrysh

Goodness gracious me! I think people have forgotten how to read - I said keep the discussion mature and constructive - no slanging matches

@diwana - truth be told, your posts imply the following:

1. A woman must have been forcibly subdued for it to be rape. If she did not fight back then she must have consented.

Not the only pre-requisite. Many other evidences need to be presented or looked at along with this to conclude that a crime did occur.
2. The burden is on the woman to prove that she was raped, otherwise assume that the man is innocent because there are sooooooooo many case of woman falsely accusing men of rape. The rape must be obvious - anything that falls outside your narrow definition of what rape is could not possibly be rape.

**Yes. In the eyes of law, innocent unless proven guilty. **

Do you think EVERYONE who is accused definitely a criminal?
3. In a marital relationship a woman’s purpose is satisfying her husband - woe to her if she denies her husband.

You are putting words because of your bias. I said both are obliged. Not just the woman.

If this satisfies your bias then I can say: Shame on the man who’s wife comes to him with sexual need and without any legit reason he refuses and she has to find other means to get satisfaction. Happy?

Gotta say, you come across as a misogynist. But hey, if that floats your boat…

**So, if I present both sides of picture, I am misogynist? What kind of standard you have in yor mind? **

**You want to hear just one thing. “The man is guilty regardless what the facts may be just because a woman cries being a victim?” **

**If that floats yout boat then so be it. **

@Sara516

The same type of people who say marital rape is a myth created by so called educated modern women. :k:

Yes it is a myth. But that does not make me a ‘low class person’ who would bring someone’s relative or spouse in to discussion.

Seriously dude, underneath all the so-called “logic” and “reasoning” that you think only you possess, you’re still a jaahil with misogynistic and chauvanistic views.

**Already gave an answer for so called being a mysogynist above. **

I think you should know better than name calling. You have been a moderator. “Nuff said”.

[diwana]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Peace All

I think brother diwana is being misunderstood. I think Jafri's insight is quite useful here.

Let's replace the word "rape" with "surprise sex" ... woah please be patient with me ...

Surprise is either shocking or amusing, so let's say there is:

amusing surprise sex and shocking surprise sex

Ok now sex should have a general consent in place in Islam and other faiths a marriage represents the general consent for sex, people following other frameworks have less tangible forms of general consent, for example, they could tell people verbally "we are an item", they could be seen together in public so others understand them to be together. They could share a bed together, i.e. they sleep in the same room in the same space on a regular basis or on the basis that does not give rise to concern to the public at large who are at ease with the idea of their joint status.

When general consent is in place:

We can say that amusing surprise sex - healthy sexual adventure (1) We can say that shocking surprise sex - rough and unfair, which translates to injustice to the partner (2)

When general consent is not in place:

We can say that amusing surprise sex - fornication and both persons are morally wrong, (if one partner chooses there is a possible case for rape accusation but requires investigation) (3)

We can say that shocking surprise sex - true rape (4)

Now each of these will have different levels of penalties/compensations, refer to the number references below:

(1) - Islamically if the general consent is in marriage this would be rewardable activity, if not in marriage then this is a major sin called zina, otherwise as an act where general consent other than marriage is enough then this is permissible.

(2) - Islamically if the situation took place in marriage this would be frowned upon, it would be cause for marriage to be broken, the doer would be sinful for inflicting harm on another person, but would not be accountable to the degree of zina, because the 'sex' part of the act was legal it was the 'rough' part that wasn't moral. Islamically if this happened where no marriage was in place even if general consent is there it would be considered as rape - see (4). In societies where general consent without marriage is enough then it can still be rape, which leaves the door open for alleged victims who have given general consent to create problems. This way the full punishment and dishonour may fall on a person convicted of rape. The possibility of injustice tending towards the accused increases as a result.

(3) - Islamically this is zina both are held accountable, in societies where general consent is enough, this is as though it is the same as (1).

(4) - Islamically this is rape, in societies where general consent is enough this would be called rape and the due punishment given to the rapist.

So even though (2) is wrong Islamically it is not the same as (4), "rape in marriage" should be called something else. Unjust sexual relations with wife or husband are not legally crimes in Shari'ah, but are moral ones and every moral crime is the cause for filing a divorce, there may even be an additional compensation that is required.

The case in question by OP would fall in either (2) or (3) and if (3) is proven then it could turn in to a (4) if enough evidence is available.

Thanks Jafri for the terminology, just in case it was copyright I gave reference to you ...

Another excellent post.

It is about time people lay aside their misconceptions and biases and understand the graveness and seriousness of accusing someone of a crime.

[princessjojo]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Diwana, I'm was drawing parallels not confusing or mixing things.

I'd still like to know. ***Can a husband rape his wife?

---

(Given your definition that use of force= rape)

If you really dislike the term 'marital rape' or think it's invalid, I will refer to it as r.o.w.b.h (rape of wife by husband)

[diwana]

Re: When is rape not rape?

^Please read the post by Psyah bro. Word by word. :)

[psyah]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Another excellent post.

It is about time people lay aside their misconceptions and biases and understand the graveness and seriousness of accusing someone of a crime.

Peace diwana

Humbly agreed. The most important thing in Islam is to maintain balance in order to provide justice. Just imagine if there was a couple who were not married but since they did have general consent of sex for each other with each other what if on one occasion one member teases the other to the point of urgent sexual attention then walks away? Is this not a case for psychologically leading someone on and not delivering the goods? What crime is that - psychological torture?

Now I'm not lessening the seriousness of bad sexual practice in marriage men and women both do it, for sure the women may end up worse off because a man as stupid as he is tends to resort to physical means to get his needs. Women have great emotional and sensual power they can easily use that to control men, when they decide to deprive their men from it then it can be harmful to them if done with the wrong sort of man, the gentlemen would be patient and eventually divorce the woman if he felt she did not want to be with him again that may not work out in her favour especially if she enjoyed his lifestyle.

I should also mention the man that is uncontrollable. The brute who will rape other women and abuse his own wife, yes living with such a man will be scary and the women should file for divorce as soon as possible. Continuing to live with such men means they continue to give general consent for sex. There are factors of fear to consider but then they are no better in the marriage anyway.

[diwana]

Re: When is rape not rape?

Peace diwana

Humbly agreed. The most important thing in Islam is to maintain balance in order to provide justice. Just imagine if there was a couple who were not married but since they did have general consent of sex for each other with each other what if on one occasion one member teases the other to the point of urgent sexual attention then walks away? Is this not a case for psychologically leading someone on and not delivering the goods? What crime is that - psychological torture?

Now I'm not lessening the seriousness of bad sexual practice in marriage men and women both do it, for sure the women may end up worse off because a man as stupid as he is tends to resort to physical means to get his needs. Women have great emotional and sensual power they can easily use that to control men, when they decide to deprive their men from it then it can be harmful to them if done with the wrong sort of man, the gentlemen would be patient and eventually divorce the woman if he felt she did not want to be with him again that may not work out in her favour especially if she enjoyed his lifestyle.

I should also mention the man that is uncontrollable. The brute who will rape other women and abuse his own wife, yes living with such a man will be scary and the women should file for divorce as soon as possible. Continuing to live with such men means they continue to give general consent for sex. There are factors of fear to consider but then they are no better in the marriage anyway. ..

Peace 2U2 Psyah!

Yes that would be psychological torture. In marriage (and even outside marriage )playing with someone's emotions is unethical and just plain and simple wrong.

Agreed with the rest as well. :)

[el_topo]

Re: When is rape not rape?

2- No it is not emotional blackmail. Not for those who respect the needs of other partner in marriage. It is the the pre-requisite of a marriage relation to care for each other.

Only those who think that so called freedom is extended so much that sex can be denied to married partner WITHOUT A LEGIT reason, will be emotionally disturbed by this.

If you say so.

[quote]
3- Hand, tissue?

Don't you think that is an insult to a married partner....
[/quote]

Nope. It's called humour.

[diwana]

Re: When is rape not rape?

If you say so.

Nope. It's called humour.

Your humour brought a good point. I used that to convey a message.

[Jafri]

Re: When is rape not rape?

I think brother diwana is being misunderstood. I think Jafri's insight is quite useful here.

Let's replace the word "rape" with "surprise sex" ... woah please be patient with me ...

I'm so honored.

[blackforest_360]

Re: When is rape not rape?

@diwana

Rape is rape when it looks like rape. Otherwise it is not rape.

Splitting hair is what we see these days unfortunately and this silly concept now has found its ways in to married couple bedrooms.

What exactly does rape look like? You have repeated many times over that “rape is rape when it looks like rape” but failed to describe it. Enlighten us will ya.

[diwana]

Re: When is rape not rape?

@blackforest_360

What exactly does rape look like? You have repeated many times over that “rape is rape when it looks like rape” but failed to describe it. Enlighten us will ya.

Me enlightening?

There is whole lot of information available for you to consult elsewhere. My point was only to point out the two sides of stories and be aware of seriousness of condemning ANYONE without authentic proof.