What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Salaam.
I came across this forum and thought it would be interesting to catch a glimpse of the predominant attitudes and thoughts of the average Pakistani today…and surprise surprise! It’s vastly different from most of the expats and traditional Pakis I have the fortune of being acquainted with, particularly on the topic of RELIGION and POLITICSS. Since the whole blasphemy schbang is still a popular topic, I thought I’d strike while the irons hot.

So, I’m curious.

What insecurities or problems do you have with:

a) Pakistan being established historically as an Islamic State (Quaid’s vision, and all that)
b) Shariah Law (including Blasphemy Law)
c) Islamic Political Intsitutions
d) Thought of Pakistan evolving into an omni-Islamic State: de facto, de jure.

Honesty, critiques and debates are welcome. Please remember to be nice though :slight_smile:

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

**
bro, u r asking for too much. courtesy and decency is entirely alien to the people who argue a point here and thats why i hardly participate here.**

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Today pakistan is not Jinnah’s pakistan, but is a Zia ul Haqs pakistan.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Peace Nene3

Quite frankly as a personal opinion - I do not live in Pakistan, but:

a) I believe history has it wrong - Pakistan was established in the Name of Islam but not as an Islamic state, it was a Muslim state with a Democratic framework. The blasphemy law in principle is designed to protect people, but it used to attack people instead.

b) The Shari’ah needs to be implemented correctly in total it cannot co-exist with other frameworks or there will be injustices. Pakistan was made with and maintained with a view to veneer the most critical aspects of Shari’ah over the Pakistani democratic framework.

c) I believe the political institutions are the cause for powermongery in Pakistan, as a result Islam is used to steer masses of people al for the benefit of the few who rule. This starts off at college/university level as these have been infiltrated and the happening at the universities needs no explanation. These are the same people who grow to become our leaders and even religious representatives.

d) A dream … It won’t evolve in that direction … it will have to revolutionise in that direction … currently zealous behaviour may seem to some as Islamisation but it is quite the reverse. We have a knack for jumping from one extreme to the other artfully missing the middle path.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

a) I don’t think that Pakistan was established as an Islamic state. Having said that, Pakistan has no obligation at all to follow the vision of its founding fathers - its people’s sole obligation is to follow the commands of God, and as such in principle should work to transform it into a state run on the principles of Islam.

b) Shariah law needs to be brought in when the people themselves are committed to following Islam wholly, as was the case with the founding of the first Islamic state in Medina. If Islam is forced on a people unwilling to accept it, the people will seek to undermine it and rebel against it. Social transformation is required prior to legal transformation; a sign that the people will willingly embrace Shariah is when the people vote for parties that are committed to it.

A blasphemy law is needed; however, Pakistan’s current blasphemy law is not. Any law under which a doctor can be put in prison awaiting trial for throwing a business card into the trash is obviously flawed.

c) Pakistan has weak Islamic political institutions, particularly when compared to countries where the Muslim Brotherhood operates. The main cause of this is the extensive religious fragmentation of Pakistan’s Muslims. We have large numbers of so many different sects that make it impossible for them all to align on what Islamic political actions are. The break-up of the MMA is the prime example of this.

d) The differences amongst Pakistan’s muslims will permanently undermine efforts to evolve into an Islamic state. The Islamic state will more likely re-emerge in a middle-eastern country with a more unified Muslim community, which will absorb Pakistan as a subordinate province.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Only if they are not abused and have no impact on minorities.. And the law (blasphemy laws) regardless of sharia or not is/are equally applied to other faiths. In Pak its OK to go after an Ahmedi with RPG but a Christian gets the rope for speaking his/her mind. Not good and not fair!!!

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

In current state of Pakistan, no sharia law can be successful. Besides, I do not trust any of the current ‘political’ molvis for anything so I will not trust them with enforcing shariah as well. Even non-political molvis are not so great as they keep supporting the ‘political’ idiot molvis for having a beard and using Islam for their anything gains.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

a) Pakistan was not defined historically as an Islamic state. It was defined as a Muslim state, where Islam gave communal identity, defined in opposition largely to Hindus. It is not necessarily the same thing. Consider the case of Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Communal identities and national boundaries have been drawn on the basis of religion, yet neither has become a theocracy.

b) I have a profound mistrust of someone else deciding what interpretation of Islam I should follow. And that is the case for the huge diversity of sects we have in our country. Zia faced the most opposition on sharia laws not from secularists or liberals, but from Shias who organized mass protests. Given the diversity of our country, any sharia laws must be to a limited extent and voluntary as in several other countries. Malaysia is a model to look at.

c) Islamic parties have historically had little political success. I hope this continues. I personally wouldnt vote for one.

d) Everyone happens to have a different vision of what such a state would be. I for one am content with a functioning state with law and order, freedom to say what you want and believe what you believe, education, prosperity etc along with the freedom to practice your religion.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

nine thousand three hundred and twenty nine posts in 17 months and you ‘hardly participate here’!

ok :smiley:

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

**
lol…i didn’t mean on GS…i meant on religion and politics. i stay away…i think i’ve not more than 25 posts in those two sections…may be 30. :slight_smile:

and, remember i was away in New Zealand for 10 months and made NO posts during that period. there u go! haha
**

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Very easy for Pakistan.
Follow only Qauid e Azam when making a law.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Quaid e Azam never wanted an Islamic State. He hated Theocracy and was very secular in nature. He never wanted Shariah Law or Blasphemy Law, he didn’t even prohibit alcohol or gambling. If Quaid e Azam’s vision was followed then right now Pakistan would be a developed country and a model for other Muslim majority countries. Unfortunately after ZAB came everything went down the drain.

Right now we are following Zia’s vision.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

If only we could just follow the written constitution to its core, we wont need any versions.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

[note]Nene23, I’m sticky posting your thread. People please keep one liners and jokes of this thread. Thanks. [/note]

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Salaam!
Thanks for the contribution, y’all :slight_smile:

@ KKK - Clarification: I’m not a bro >.< unless you count the HIMYM definition, which i presume, you didn’t.

@ yamahaguy - How would you define Jinnah’s Pakistan?

@psyah, mad_scientist, 1947 and ravage -

a) Allow me to quote from history…

“This Dominion which represents the fulfillment, in a certain measure, of the cherished goal of 100 million Muslim of this sub-continent, came into existence on August 15, 1947. Pakistan is the premier Islamic state and the fifth largest in the world”

[RIGHT]Broadcast talk on Pakistan to the People of the United States of America, February 1948
Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah Speeches and Statements,
Government of Pakistan, Ministry of Information, 1989, p155[/RIGHT]

“You have fought many a battle on the far flung fields of the globe to get rid the world of the fascist menace and make it safe for democracy. Now you have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of mankind in your own native soil”

[RIGHT]Address to Officers and Men of Ack-Ack Regiments, Malir,
Karachi, February 21, 1948
Rizwan Ahmed, Sayings of Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah: with his life and time at a glance, Karachi, Pakistan Movement Center, 1993, p148[/RIGHT]

“Do not be overwhelmed by the enormity of the task. There is many an example in history of young nations building themselves up by sheer determination and force of character. You are made of sterling material and are second to none. Why should you also not succeed like many other, like your own forefathers. You have only to develop the spirit of the “Mujahids”. You are a nation whose history is replete with people of wonderful gifts, character and heroism. Live up to your traditions and add to it another chapter of glory.

All I require of you now is that everyone of us to whom this message reaches must vow to himself and be prepared to sacrifice his all, if necessary, in building up Pakistan as a bulwark of Islam and as one of the greatest nations whose ideal is peace within and peace without.”

[RIGHT]“The Task Ahead” Speech at the University Stadium Lahore, October 30, 1947.
Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah: Speeches and Statements,
Government of Pakistan, Ministry of Information, 1989, p94[/RIGHT]

b) * The Shariah Law is an integral part of the Islamic state, if not the foundation itself. Practically speaking, would it be viable as a voluntary parallel system within a country where ipso facto its large-scale antithesis prevails? Or consider, would reformation of laws concerning theft in a society full of and run by thieves be altered in their favor or manipulated to appear as endangering? Law itself, should not be a subjective instrument but an absolute guideline for society, and what better guideline is there to follow but a divine one?

[ii] Public understanding of the Shariah law itself, is limited and contrary to its spirit. Have any of you read (in detail, and not simply what newspapers NGOs and politicians quote out of text) and found any flaw within the Shariah that makes it unacceptable for complete application as supreme law of the land? And isn’t waiting for masses to turn to Islam before it can be applied in the legal sphere tantamount to waiting for people to stop killing, stealing, committing all sorts of transgressions before any penal code is established? Law is meant to deter, not only limit and curtail damages…and Islamic law is meant to establish a just and equitable system in all aspects of life, with prevention as its base, thus verdicts of punishment only as a last resort. It’s application is not all “zomg-talibanization-ruuuun!” as popular media portrays.

[iii] In the present context, I agree. There are extremists, there are politically motivated jurists, there are people with no religious sense chairing religious organizations, there are masses with no education, let alone religious insight. Does this mean that we shouldn’t bother correcting this milieu?

abrupt end because my anime is on

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Before digging up the other things, I’m astonished on the thinking that Pakistan was not established as Islamic State!! Nene share very informative quote from the history and even a villager can tell that Pakistan was established on the name of Islam.
Even i am not a good Muslim but knows from the history that Pakistan was made on the name of Islam. Its just a thought of biased secular that Pakistan were meant to be a secular state.
So its crystal clear that Pakistan is a Islamic State.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Founding of Pakistan, being an Islamic or secular state has been discussed to death! Whether the founder was secular or wanted an Islamic state but the place was founded for MUSLIMS (homeland) to represent their unique identity. Can we move forward from the last half century.

Its a pity that the current so called religious parties, establishment, civil society, or whoever make their own judgments and ruling based on emotions rather than the actual message the teaching of Prophet (SAW) and take the law into their own hands and kill one another in the name of religion.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Peace Nene23 and Sannan

(NyFella I agree with you, but I gotta get this out)

Pakistan was indeed built on the NAME of Islam and that was how it was broadcast to the ‘public’ in order to get their backing. Meanwhile in the decision making circles Pakistan was supposed to be the country that deals with providing the Muslims their own state. Read up on the discussions not the public statements.

Analyse the framework of the Pakistani law - it mirrors the law of Wesminster

Yes … there has been a gradual Islamisation of the law but the process has been implemented incorrectly and is putty in the hands of corrupt people. When judges rule correctly their are killed or arrested and when they agree to the pressure from the self-serving politicians and religiously inclined powermongers then things like this happen.

Through a process of misinformation and the breeding ground for radicalisation mostly through partisanship and sectarianism between various Islamic groups we can see the effects of the current Pakistan. In addition the stigma attached to religious education and the grandeur attached to modernity has meant less capable people are in positions of religious authority. The pragmatic people, leaders and calm people are being found in the areas which have better opportunities in the material sense. Otherwise people have also learnt that the best way to move masses of people is through their “soft spot” because Muslims in general are a religion-centric people the most effective way to control them is through emotional-religious spurring and when in the hands of corrupt people this will get out of hand.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

:S thats what I’m saying too?

And I agree. It’s an oft-repeated discussion and rather cliche but thats why its so surprising..and frustrating…to have people ignorant of it in the first place :frowning:
Also psyah, your’e right about the misuse of religious sentiments and bifurcation of society. I just hope as a community we can awake from our slumber and work things out before its too late.

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Re: What’s YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Good analysis.

I think the problem lies with the populace unwilling to change because of the status quo in the current climate. They play to the music of whomever gets to the top and set agendas to their advantage, and know that the Awam is ready to buy-in on whatever is coming their way.