What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

As a Muslim it doesnt matters to me what Jinah wanted weather he wanted a secular Pakistan or an Islamic one what matters me is what are the commands of ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW or what we call shariat and to establish the commands of ALLAH it is farz on us as a Muslim that we will do at any cost wheter many people like it or not

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

a) Pakistan was not established as an Islamic state. IMO, Jinnah's vision for Pakistan was a ridiculous secular one, framed around western law (ridiculous since the very reason the nation was being created was due to religion! - clearly i am of the view that partition was a mistake). He was not in favor of a theocratic state, but a democratic one where Islamic values would be a guiding light. That said, I believe Jinnah was was a shortsighted selfish man who created a nation in his dying moments (unbeknown to others) only so that he would be worshiped like a hero after death. Jinnah's vision of a nation being created as the result religious divide, to become one where all religious minorities would be respected, and religious extremism would not take hold defies logic. This was a man that was barely religious himself, was out of touch and knew he wasn't to going to survive to make his vision a reality, so what did he care about the chances of it ever happening? Potentially he could have done for Pakistan what Atatürk had done for Turkey and guided the country into becoming a secular country based on the principles rationalism and the enlightment....but after his death, no one picked up the mantle and Pakistan descended into darkness, culminating in the rise of Islamic extremism supported by the US as a counterweight to the Soviets in the cold war era, that has entirely destroyed the brains of a great many Pakistanis.

b) I believe that in the modern world, rationality, sound principle and logic should guide law makers rather than religion. To make religion the basis of law results in a culture that is perpetually backward with no room for reform, improvement or criticism. Making blasphemy a crime punishable by death simply speaks to the insecurity of a political power based on religion, and perhaps the religion itself. They fear that people will think for themselves, question their authority, so this is a way to discourage that and encourage religious totalitarianism. Capital punishment in response to "speech", whether offensive or not, indicates a desire to compel people into doing as they are told, to not speak their minds and shows that those in favor of such draconian measures are not open to argument and do not have the emotional discipline to simply ignore those that may being trying to incite them or dealing with criticism.

c) Fine - as long as they are not based on compelling people against their will to hold their values, and do not promote violence. Obviously not the case for a great many Islamic parties.

d) It should be clear from my previous comments, that I would be completely against such an evolution.

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

well sir ur highly mistaken, today it has become zardari's and bb's pakistan rather then Quaid's pakistan

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Well then you cant be a Pakistani then. Your not only lie about Islam, you also insult the founder of our country.

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

well what is he lieing about Islam? that Islam doesnt say to do what Allah drdered us to do or does Islam orders that implementing Islamic laws and shariyah in it's true Islamic sense in the country rather then extremism, is a crime? what are you talking about? sometimes you call any attack on politician as shirk and sometimes you yourself follow extremist behaviour by just self stating corrupt politicians as shaheed which is truely Islamic term and not any other. what are you trying to tell against Islam?

now this is today such an ignorance in the country that by giving lame excuses of extremism in religious people and sidelining our own extremism in liberal and selfish politicians and their activists as well, we just deny to implement true Islam in the country so that if Islam would be enforced in the country in its true sense without extremist activities, then still we could not gain our personal political interests which we like to achieve with our corruption. thats why we are against the shariah's implementation in the country in true sense.

so, i dont care of any corruption and selfish thoughts. we must struggle to enforce and implement Islamic rules practically without extremism in pakistan. and any other law or thought of any other corrupt politician is unbearable.

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

There is no such thing as "True" Islam... That is a naive dream. Everyone has their own version of Islam, everyone see's things differently. The quest for your "true" Islam will only lead to death and destruction, as this incident with Shaheed Salamn Taseer has shown.
Jinnah was smart enough to know that introducing Islam into politics would lead to this war over ideology, simply because there are far to many schools of thought for anyone to agree on. And so you have people murdering for what they think is the "True" Islam...

It time to grow up man. Im sorry. Spare poor Pakistan of this Jihad of yours.

Pakistan was created by Jinnah, not some Mullah with a divine purpose. If you want to live in Pakistan, you should adhere to the principles on which it was founded. People like this "Zavran" character with his extremist ideology, and his contempt for our country should be expelled for his terrorist ideology.

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Salaam.

Actually, Jinnah was as good a Muslim as the best amongst them, and created Pakistan for Islam, via *Islam, and to *implement Islam. Read his correspondence with Iqbal. Read his statements. Read his un-biased biography. Read about his actions, that reveal his character. He fought the case of a Muslim who killed a Hindu who was Blaspheming the Prophet, and buried him with his own hands saying "This son of a carpenter has surpassed me in his deeds". And people say he was secular?!? I know its hard for you to digest living in the midst of day-in day-out propaganda to turn Pakistan into Attaturk's model of a secular state, but theres only so much of history that you can twist.

Jinnah gave his LIFE, for the sake of this country, can we PLEASE at least respect his memory THIS much to NOT slander his vision?

Seriously, I have no problem with secularism as a system, but what really sucks is people trying to attribute it to a Great man and father of this nation...who was NOT SECULAR! Its like attributing Chuck Norris quotes to Gandhi!!

About Islam - Its really annoying to have people say time and again how diverse and sectarian it is. Please try to educate yourself more about the fundamentals of this beautiful religion instead of relying on GEO/ARY/your local molvi for sensationalized information. The groups or divides are SO minimal, its not even worthy of discussing. Even the chasm between Shiite and Sunni schools of thought have about 96% similarities, and they are considered two most divergent viewpoints. The four basic schools of jurisprudence, Hanafi, Shafii, Hambali and Maliki are also 99% similar because they all follow the same SOURCE, the Qur'an and Sunnah.

There are insurgents, agents, destabilizing forces and in-fight instigators at play so we should not generalize about the differences among Muslims as something irreconcilable or the whole "mera Islam tumhara Islam" attitude. There is One God, One final Prophet, and One Book. If you follow that, your'e a Muslim, and the way you choose to pray or sleep or eat or whatever is insignificant to the grander scheme of things.

That being said, people do have problems of extremism in Pakistan because it is a state consisting of masses run more by emotions than intellect or reasoning. Religious politicians tune in to that and use it. This is not a flaw in the concept of an Islamic state or "True Islam", but is exploitation by corrupt individuals.

The whole problem, possibly the GREATEST problem plaguing Pakistan, is illiteracy. Illiteracy of the secular about Islam, and of the Religious about all other knowledge. IF our education system was simply improved - no - COMPLETELY revised, we'd be at a state where this debate would be non-existent.

Sadly, and realistically, the minority of elite controlling everything DONT WANT educated masses, DONT WANT religious harmony, DONT WANT a solid legal and social system, and DONT WANT Islam as their beacon. Therefore till all the Zardaris Musharrafs Shareefs and Bhuttos are done with this country, please continue to quarrel.

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

and by the way, what about your terrorist ideology man? you also deserve to be expelled from the country as you held responsible to own pak army for all defeats. this is traitorship man. PPP k jiyalay.......

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

wah bhai jan i like that :)

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Nice question but I believe there are lot of assumptions in your question, as if your mind has preset idea of Islamic state and Shariah laws.

What I see happening in Pakistan is that, Pakistan was Islamic state but after Zia retarded reforms, slowly Pakistan turned into Shaitanic state hijacked by Shaitans in the name of Islam.

I want Pakistan to become Islamic state as it should be according to Quran, teaching and practices of Prophet (SAW), something I believe Quaid-e-Azam was also dreaming. Unfortunately, Islamic state I am talking about, something that Quran and Sunnah of Prophet (SAW) gave us, something Quaid-e-Azam dreamt, is not what I think present-day Shaitans in the clothing of Islam perceive.

To me, Islamic state is a state that has laws not to impose religion but to impose equality and freedom. State where no individual has privilege of any sort over others regardless of their religion, creed, colour, or whatever differences. State that is secular in nature, tolerate all differences in opinion, but do not allow certain immorality in public that are considered as immorality in all culture and religion. State that allows whatever a person like to believe or worship, allows preaching of all faiths, allows debates between religions, but does not allow abuses, violence or whatever in the name of religion (or in the name of anything, like culture, language, colour, race, etc). Another thing I would like to say is that Blasphemy law in Pakistan is nothing to do with Islam or Shairah neither I believe Allah would like or Prophet (SAW) would have approved such law.

My belief of Islamic state is according to Quran and Sunnah of Prophet (SAW). I would not mind if Meesaq-e-Madina, the constitution given by Prophet (SAW) is made constitution of Pakistan, though I am sure Pakistani Shaitans who talk about Shariat-laws would like that, as Meesaq-e-Madina is classic constitution of secular state that guarantees every right equally to all living in the state regardless of their religion, beliefs, colour, cast, or creed, giving them equal protection to their life, property, and religious freedom what Muslims in Islamic state have.

As far as Quran is concerned, Quran promotes ‘live and let live’ policy at various places. I believe that a person cannot be Muslim if that person reads Quran and do not believe on it. Allah tells Muslims in Quran that when dealing with non-Muslims religious matters, they should read and follow surah Kafiroon.

Here is Surah Al-Kafiroon (basis of secularism): Surah 109: 1-6
Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Above is a Meccan Surah. Now just imagine that if Muslims living in Mecca (Kafir state at that time) expect from Kafirs what is written above and do differently with Kafir living in Muslim state, than certainly such person cannot be Muslim but Munafiq, and that is what Shaitans in Pakistan are, Munafiqs. These people read Quran and say that they want Quran to be implemented in Pakistan, but in reality they neither believe on Quran nor want Quran to get implemented in Pakistan.

[Note: In Meesaq-e-Madina also, Prophet (SAW) used same principle regarding non-Muslims in Madina, that is, in regard to their deen, it would be lakum-deena-kum walay yadeen, that is, as far as religion is concerned, to non-Muslims it would be their way and to Muslim it would be Muslims way. As for rest of the state affairs, all were treated same and had same rights]

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

Constitution of Pakistan does not judge pakistanis based on character but it judges pakistanis based on their religion. Constitution of Pakistan does not give non muslims equal rights.
Its illegal for a non muslim Pakistani to be head of state. Is that what Jinnah wanted?

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Re: What's YOUR problem with Islam/Islamic laws/Political Islam?

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Nene23, I praise your courage and thoughts as the thread moves tthrough loops and turns.

Quite honestly I believe that 'No matter what was conceived, by whom and for what purpose, still it has/had to be administered by the SAME PEOPLE of the land.
My point is, when people of the land regardless of the their religious beliefs, eventually have to participate and run the wheels and Gears of the Nation the entire responsibility of Failures falls back onto the 'conceiver'

Hence the mud slinging & firing away the blame-gun, this argument has lived on past its expiry date without conclusive pointers. Not only the time has expired for such matters (Global Participation as a Socio-economic Nation) the correction and recourse eventualities have slipped away to the farthest corners of something, you may call it something if you wish! But I can try with the following; Trains has left the platform, Elvis has left the building or Jo Soota raha woh khota raha, etc etc,,

I know and I feel one thing for sure that we have evolved as a very intolerant, naive and hypertensive behavior species which conforms to NO ONE and NO IDEOLOGY. Some might argue that with Allah swt and his Holy Quran bestowed unto the Umat of Mohammad PBUH one does not need and ideology. Why would there be so much resentment and division of thoughts?

Today in Pakistan there are more than one conceptional plans afloat Omini-Islamic State, non-secular secular even 'Khilafat' ,,,,,,

Point - A = Global nations don't give a hoot for what system Pakistan should be governed with as long as it abides by the Global socio-economic structure, peaceful and non-catalytic policies. But you have to have a System Soon
Point - B = Shariah Law is conclusive and the correct path to follow. But how would you justify 'wrong from right' when being dealt with by the people of the land with their own divisions and sectarian ideologies ? Tough question I know,,
Point - C = When you have divisions and sectarian issues the Idea is non-conceivable imo.
Point - D = Pakistan has to retrofit its 5 basic elements of any socio-economic society structure as; Welfare, Education, Health & Safety, Food & Shelter

We may live with illusions but reality shows otherwise, we have NOT ACHIEVED any of the goals our forefathers visioned we'l have, nor are we in any position to leave a well thought and well sought vision for our Generations to come. In fact for the later I'm sure someone in the far future would ask the same questions as you have.
These are my opinions as how I see Pakistan today !