What's with the hate?

[canadiandesigirl]

Re: What's with the hate?

She meant to say that religious minorities' and women's rights are not always upheld in other countries around the world, regardless of whether or not it's a Muslim country, and are, for the most part, upheld in the US.

Ghosty, you can make all the sen you want in the world but it doesn't matter. :p

Why are we stuck in tangents here? I am not going to give anecdotes or examples because some people will find weaknesses in the examples and miss the essence of the point.

The point is simple, you live here, you are a resident or citizen, you have to have some sense of belonging or loyalty or being a part of the place, with its weaknesses and strengths all factored in. Otherwise, why be here? I believe that applies to all kinds of groups.

Unfortunately some people love to just argue for the sake of arguing. The point of the thread was totally different and I agree with Niki completely.

[Southie]

Re: What's with the hate?

Whatever the negatives in terms of policy, people overall are friendly. For every right wing nut there are several that are open and accepting. There may be a glass ceiling. But we have Vikram Pandit Fred Hasssn Indira Noory and other south Asian CEOs. The positives are significant.

[Ghost14]

Re: What’s with the hate?

@canadiandesigirl

Ghosty, you can make all the sen you want in the world but it doesn’t matter.

I thought I would try to bring some clarity.

@Southie

Whatever the negatives in terms of policy, people overall are friendly. For every right wing nut there are several that are open and accepting. There may be a glass ceiling. But we have Vikram Pandit Fred Hasssn Indira Noory and other south Asian CEOs. The positives are significant.

Don’t forget Rajat Gupta

[Southie]

Re: What’s with the hate?

@Ghost14

I thought I would try to bring some clarity.

Don’t forget Rajat Gupta

I think there was selective prosecution of Rajaratnam and Gupta. In the case of Gupta they were going out of their way to get him. By that standard half the financial industry and Congress shouldbe behind bars.

Ironically the prosecutor was Indian origin - probably over enthusiastic to land a prized vconviction.

[X2]

I don't think there was selective prosecution but these guys simply did not have the type of long term deep and broad connections others did and thus did not get favorable treatment compared to those who were more connected.

[Southie]

Re: What's with the hate?

Could be. A subtle distinction.

[Reha]

Re: What’s with the hate?

@diwana

Reha my friend, you and I and many of us reading this can understand what this means in English.

Here it is.

"So then I did say to that lady that "be thankful" you can walk around in a burkha on the streets here. “Appreciate" your freedom that if your husband beats you, you’ll get help from the government. And if you can’t, leave.”

Now please read these bold parts and read what I said in response. You will find nothing which I made up and you need to come to defend to.

diwana…lemme ask you something:

what is wrong with what she said? you want to live in a land that gives you all the freedom in the world and you still want to scoff in their face and say “so what…you owe me this”…is that right?

@Ghost14

Agreed. I don’t understand why people live in a country that is supposedly so antithetical to their views and way of life, and I’m speaking about other countries besides the US.

Personally, I have an interest in preserving Desi culture, which includes India as well as Pakistan, but there are many immigrants of all nationalities who do not care. I feel an affinity for Pakistan, even if many of my values would seem alien to a lot of people who live there, so I would like to pass this on to my kids. That said, I think nationalism and patriotism are detrimental and divisive so, while I would be okay with kids being proud of whatever country they are born in, I would hope that with age and knowledge they would gain a deeper perspective on their heritage and their identity.

:k:

[diwana]

Re: What’s with the hate?

@Ghost14

She meant to say that religious minorities’ and women’s rights are not always upheld in other countries around the world, regardless of whether or not it’s a Muslim country, and are, for the most part, upheld in the US.

I disagreed to the approach used to put down that woman saying she should be thankful to be free of walking around in Burka as if Burka acceptance is something one should accept as a gesture of kindness and ‘Burka unacceptance and intolerance’ should be considered as a norm.

Did you not get that sir from my earlier post?

Same goes with Husband beating.

This is by no means norm in Muslim families and certainly not prevalent in Muslim families compared to non-Muslim families.

There was no need to put down that woman on the basis of these statements.

Oh! Be thankful! Your husband does not beat you because you live in a country which has laws against husband beating wife and you can get law on your side if he did…otherwise you would be beaten everyday woman!

How does that sound?

[Reha]

Re: What's with the hate?

Basically, the idea is....goray are kharab. Desis are jannati.

[diwana]

Re: What's with the hate?

diwana..............lemme ask you something:

what is wrong with what she said? you want to live in a land that gives you all the freedom in the world and you still want to scoff in their face and say "so what...you owe me this".......is that right?

Where did I say the freedom should not be cherished.

I only objected to the method used to show this woman her rights of freedom.

I do not think anyone from the land of free even have used these derogatory examples openly and officially to tell that woman her rights to freedom.

[Reha]

Re: What's with the hate?

Where did I say the freedom should not be cherished.

I only objected to the method used to show this woman her rights of freedom.

I do not think anyone from the land of free even have used these derogatory examples openly and officially to tell that woman her rights to freedom.

Your posts are implying it.

The method used was one that might help her or anyone else understand how this freedoms also applies to them in their everyday life.

It was by no means derogatory :)

[diwana]

Re: What's with the hate?

Your posts are implying it.

The method used was one that might help her or anyone else understand how this freedoms also applies to them in their everyday life.

It was by no means derogatory :)

Implying it?

Sorry but not even close.

One does not have to go overboard to shun someone in regards to making a point.

Both points of Burka tolerance and husband beating were unnecessary and uncalled for and **even derogatory **to be used to make someone accept, acknowledge or cherish the freedom one enjoys in US.

In case you missed I did agree with Niksik for rest of her original post. :)

[Niksik]

Re: What's with the hate?

LOL, Diwana, just want to tell you that this woman is very aware of another sister in our community who's husband did indeed beat her and is jail. We all worked closely on that case. And yes, I work with groups that deal with battered women. She of all people should not complain. Perhaps it's my fault and I should have explained further. Regarding the burkha, well she brought up that this isn't a muslim country, you see booze everywhere, scantily clad women, no Godly principles etc etc... so I said well hey, you still have the freedom of practicing your religion...no one is stopping you. And then the burkha statement. :)

[Niksik]

Re: What’s with the hate?

@diwana

I disagreed to the approach used to put down that woman saying she should be thankful to be free of walking around in Burka as if Burka acceptance is something one should accept as a gesture of kindness and ‘Burka unacceptance and intolerance’ should be considered as a norm.

Did you not get that sir from my earlier post?

Same goes with Husband beating.

This is by no means norm in Muslim families and certainly not prevalent in Muslim families compared to non-Muslim families.

There was no need to put down that woman on the basis of these statements.

Oh! Be thankful! Your husband does not beat you because you live in a country which has laws against husband beating wife and you can get law on your side if he did…**otherwise you would be beaten everyday woman! **

How does that sound?

Waisey if her husband did beat her in another country, chances are:

1. She wouldn’t have the guts to tell her family, or tell when when she’s been beaten up several times.
2. Her parents would take her through a guilt trip and have her go back to her husband who is jannat ka farishta even though he beats her up.
3. Even NGOs back home that were formed with great intentions don’t have too many resources or honest people working for them anymore. Not everyone goes to Edhi.
4. That is how she will live for the rest of her life.

Here, our masjid helps such women not only pay bills, but find work. Social workers get on such cases, be it a muslim or a non-muslim. Cases are followed up and followed through. I see real stories every day.

And oh, please don’t get me wrong. I am not one to think that muslim men are bad husbands or evil people. Not at all. All I’m saying is that if you get in a mess in a 3rd world country or a developing country, it’s hard to get any justice. Guess what, I’m blessed to be living here. Just like I’m in a position to help suffering women here, I hope some day I can make a difference back home as well. At least I got started and don’t just open threads based on other people’s experiences but my own.

[diwana]

Re: What's with the hate?

So my kids are born and being raised in the US. While the husband and I teach them about our native countries, they will never love or have the deep-rooted passion for Pakistan or India as my husband and I do, respectively. And being mature about it all, I don't expect them too. We do plan on educating them about our countries and of course, they are well exposed to our culture and religion already.

So, my kids carry US flags on special days like other American kidos, read up on US history, feel proud of some of the victories, etc... and just the other day, one desi lady asked me why I allow my daughters to have American flags. So I said why not, and also because they ARE American. S*o she started her little speech on how the Americans are tormenting the rest of the world, especially the Islamic countries, and that we should not feel any patriotism whatsoever. * While I understand where she is coming from, here's my take on this issue:

1. I don't want to teach my child "hate" for anyone. They need to educate themselves as they grow older and learn our differences and similarities on their own. I cannot transfer my bias to them.

2. I cannot justify living on this land, earning a decent living, being able to practice my religion freely...yes for those of you who do not believe it, don't, but my husband and I have prayed namaz in waiting lounges of airport terminals and parking lots of MacDonalds and the first aid room at Disney World. We have azaan at our masjid and white American neighbors once complained but when we told them the significance, they graciously allowed us to continue. Religious discrimination is NOT felt or experienced on a day to day level. Look around GS and you'll see so many of us enjoying decent lifestyles and good positions at the workplace. There is more discrimination from state to state in India. So how can I speak so harshly about this country yet enjoy all the benefits. I am not endorsing any policies or their socio-political infrastructure, but shouldn't we be grateful? We always have the choice to leave?

So then I did say to that lady that be thankful you can walk around in a burkha on the streets here. Appreciate your freedom that if your husband beats you, you'll get help from the government. And if you can't, leave.

Please share your views. Please discuss. Don't diss and cuss.

LOL, Diwana, just want to tell you that this woman is very aware of another sister in our community who's husband did indeed beat her and is jail. We all worked closely on that case. And yes, I work with groups that deal with battered women. **She of all people should not complain. **Perhaps it's my fault and I should have explained further. Regarding the burkha, well she brought up that this isn't a muslim country, you see booze everywhere, scantily clad women, no Godly principles etc etc... so I said well hey, you still have the freedom of practicing your religion...no one is stopping you. And then the burkha statement. :)

OK. :)

Waisey if her husband did beat her in another country, chances are: 1. She wouldn't have the guts to tell her family, or tell when when she's been beaten up several times. 2. Her parents would take her through a guilt trip and have her go back to her husband who is jannat ka farishta even though he beats her up. 3. Even NGOs back home that were formed with great intentions don't have too many resources or honest people working for them anymore. Not everyone goes to Edhi. 4. That is how she will live for the rest of her life.

Here, our masjid helps such women not only pay bills, but find work. Social workers get on such cases, be it a muslim or a non-muslim. Cases are followed up and followed through. I see real stories every day.

And oh, please don't get me wrong. I am not one to think that muslim men are bad husbands or evil people. Not at all. All I'm saying is that if you get in a mess in a 3rd world country or a developing country, it's hard to get any justice. Guess what, I'm blessed to be living here. Just like I'm in a position to help suffering women here, I hope some day I can make a difference back home as well. At least I got started and don't just open threads based on other people's experiences but my own. :)

Got the main point of your post here.

All your points are applicable outside Pakistsn/or any Muslim countries as well.

Women do not tell their abuse in a lot of countries for one or the other reasons.

Domestic violence is not so uncommon in any country or society (Islamic or not, third world or super power) and goes largely unnoticed despite any law being present to support a woman.

A lot of women do not report these kind of incidences despite they know the law will be on their side.

A lot of women may feel, being beaten is the norm unfortunately. :(

But using these examples to make a point to *the woman who did not even say anything about the lack of freedom or Burka wearing was uncalled for.
*
Don't you agree?

---

You mentioned:

"So** she started her little speech on how the Americans are tormenting the rest of the world, especially the Islamic countries, and that we should not feel any patriotism whatsoever"**

What was the specific response to that if any? I think the response to this is missing so far. :)

[Niksik]

Re: What's with the hate?

I feel that the comment I made fit in well during our conversation. My goal was to tell her to appreciate where we are and be thankful for the freedom she has. It was rude of her to comment about my children in the first place. Her main point was that by allowing my kids to participate in patriotic activities, I am being a traitor. I think she is foolish to make that connection. I think she is being a traitor eating off the land that is feeding her, that allows her to walk freely in her preferred attire given that this is the same non-Islamic country she has so many issues with.

My response to the bolded part above, Diwana, was that I feel patriotic naturally because I have worked hard and the country has paid me for that work fair and square. I like that my children are safe and secure and while all rizq and protection comes from Allah ta'ala, he provides the means and for us that means is this country. I am grateful for that.

Let me tell you one more thing. I have seen that people like the woman in my story are generally ungrateful for everything. They complain about everything...their husbands, their children, their neighbors, their clothes, their life. It's a habit. I'm a little intolerant of that kind of whiny attitude, but that's a Life1 thread so we'll end here. I hope I answered your question Diwana.

[diwana]

Re: What's with the hate?

I feel that the comment I made fit in well during our conversation. My goal was to tell her to appreciate where we are and be thankful for the freedom she has. It was rude of her to comment about my children in the first place. Her main point was that by allowing my kids to participate in patriotic activities, I am being a traitor. I think she is foolish to make that connection. I think she is being a traitor eating off the land that is feeding her, that allows her to walk freely in her preferred attire given that this is the same non-Islamic country she has so many issues with.

My response to the bolded part above, Diwana, was that I feel patriotic naturally because I have worked hard and the country has paid me for that work fair and square. I like that my children are safe and secure and while all rizq and protection comes from Allah ta'ala, he provides the means and for us that means is this country. I am grateful for that.

Let me tell you one more thing. I have seen that people like the woman in my story are generally ungrateful for everything. They complain about everything...their husbands, their children, their neighbors, their clothes, their life. It's a habit. I'm a little intolerant of that kind of whiny attitude, but that's a Life1 thread so we'll end here. I hope I answered your question Diwana.

Yes, what an unthankful woman. She should be thankful she is not beaten by her husband and has freedom to wear whatever she likes to anytime and anywhere. :)

[Niksik]

Re: What’s with the hate?

^^ Finallyyyyyyyyyyy you understood !

[diwana]

Re: What’s with the hate?

@Niksik

^^ Finallyyyyyyyyyyy you understood !

Oh I was thinking which one should I choose, so posted all.

[hareem01]

Re: What's with the hate?

My boys wear t-shirts with both Britain And America's flags on them....that's because I like the colour combos.