What would happen in an "Islamic" society?

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Firstly. . .the questions that I posed were intended not to discount Islam as a "way of life" but to redirect our focus. If we were to take the example that Shirin has presented and evaluate it according to religion then we should have been in a debate discussing Islam vs. Christianity. (In which case btw, both girl and boy would have been severely punished.)

However. . . what we have been discussing is how "society" addressed the situation. My intent was to point out the difference in eastern and western cultures -- where that which is somewhat acceptable in western societies is still not accepted in eastern societies.

Abdulla . . .

You claim that culture is dependent on religion. Were this the case we would not be facing such difficulties in Pakistan. Unfortunately culture and religion, as practiced today, are two entirely different things. Culture is more influenced by geographic location than by religion. And I believe this to be true of any Islamic State, be it Pakistan or one from the Middle Eastern sector. Point is: Our culture is NOT Islamic.

Frankly, I believe I have read Shirin's post carefully and I believe that I have interpretted it accurately. If I haven't maybe she could step in and correct me so that I don't carry this thread off to an irrelevant direction.

I don't believe that anyone participating in this thread meant to suggest that Islam is not the best way of life. I also don't believe that if anyone did suggest that, Islam would need any advocates. Islam stands on it's own and speaks for itself. It's benefits need not be sung out. My belief is that no matter what anyone does or says, Islam cannot be tarnished. So, my verse-quoting friend, I would urge you to refrain. I would rather urge you to encourage those that have questions and doubts to go and seek out the knowledge for themselves directly from the Holy Book.

The days of someone being convinced merely by you repeating the word Islam thrice are gone.

Finally. . .
"Either say you agree to whatever Islam (Quran / Sunnah) says without any ifs, buts, maybe s, and doubts or else do what ever you like to do. "
I disagree with this comment. If there are people out there that have mixed feelings about Islam. . . I would never shun them this way. This is a practice that has been carried on for decades and has done more damage than good. It has driven away more people than it has attracted to our beloved religion. I would much rather have a sincere believer that may at times question certain aspects of the religion than hypocritical people that preach one thing and practice another. For I believe that the one sincere person that questions will also be motivated to find the answers, and since I believe Islam to be the ultimate way of life, I know that he/she would find the truth.

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Thank you Muzna

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Assalam Alaikum

Stud,

You're trying to justify one evil of society with another. These evils didn't exist under the Islamic state where money was distributed equally and it is a fact that there wasn't a single homeless person in the Islamic State. If you have a single homeless person it means failure of the state's ideology.

If any ideas exist in a state it's because they don't contradict the state's ideology. Prostitution and drugs don't contradict the capitalist ideology. So when I said the state allows women to become prostitutes so that they can make money is because they are not causing a loss to the state. The state is not doing anything to stop it, it is only the religious people who are trying to stop it, the capitalists couldn't care less.

Women wouldn't turn to prostitution if their needs were met.

Neither Saudi Arabia or Pakistan is Islamic. The definition of an Islamic state is one which rules by Qur'an and Sunnah. There isn't a single country which rules by Islam. In fact these countries show the injustice which happens when Allah's (S.W.T.) laws are rejected. I don't think you'll find a country as racist as Saudi Arabia.

Jez,

You don't hear about it because the Islamic state officially ceased to exist long before we were born, unless you're hundred and something?

Shirin,

You're saying the same thing again. What I'm saying is that situation wouldn't have existed. Its like saying would pornography get a X certificate in an Islamic state!

I didn't accuse her of being a prostitute. Also since when did men get away with adultery or fornication in an Islamic state. I thought this topic was about Islamic society yet you're talking men in western societies.

The argument that Islam and politics should be separated would only be valid if there weren't laws regarding formation of contracts, companies, trade i.e. laws regarding the functioning of a state. This is why Islam is complete.

The reason why Christianity was separated from politics is because they don't have laws such as these and because it is just a spiritual religion.

The Islamic aqeedah is spiritual and political. If you're trying to say we leave it out of politics then how is Islam going to solve our problems? and leaving it out of politics means rejecting half of Islam.

Assalam Alaikum

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Assalam Alaikum

Muzna,

When countries became part of the Islamic state it only meant that politically they became Muslim yet spiritually they remained Christians and Jews. People who try to spread Islam as just a spiritual religion are doing more harm than good.

Assalam Alaikum

25

Abdulla...You are perfectly right...

Muzna...Why you are giving threat that you will close this thread...I see that whenever the discussion comes to its hot points, you close them down...whats your problem...It happened in the past too that people used to make fun of those who tried to show the right path and thats what you did with Abdulla. What do you mean by "My verse-quotting friend" or saying Islam thrice... etc what do you mean...Your sentence that you want people here to refer to holy book directly by theirselves makes it very clear that you don't want to listen to holy verses. Thats our tragedy that we give so much respect to our holy book and keep it locked at safe places that even reading it gives us a feeling that we are making a sin. Muzna is quite anoyed with Quranic quotes and its very clear by her remarks and how she made fun of Abdulla.

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muzna stud, and shirin:

you back up one society called the “western society” and the others back up another one called “islamic society”

i wold really like you to stop calling a “pakistani society” or “Saudi arabian society” or abdullahs imaginary society an “islamic society” becuase i get offended..

its just a request…

…and i’ll wait up in the dark for you to speak to me… and i’ll open up… release me…
-black jewels of insignificance.
[email protected]
http://something.someone.somewhere.net

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Precious. . .

Where have I even suggested that I will close this thread? Please do tell.

And while you are at it please also point out what other thread has been closed when it got to it's hot point. . . I shall await your response.

Once you have clarified this much I'll proceed to address the rest of your claims regarding my comments.

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Before going any further, let me try and pull a few threads together...

  1. I think we all agree that no ideal Islamic society exists and that those countries where Islam is the prevailing religion, do not have a truly Islamic form of government or society. Right?

  2. In a truly Islamic society there would be no need for behaviours that deviate from the established norm. Right again?

I would like to know if you people (especially Mudassar, Abdulla and Jewels) agree on this. Thanks

[This message has been edited by Shirin (edited December 28, 1998).]

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Assalam O Alaikum

Sister Muzna
I am greatly honored to be called a verse sayer, Alhamdolillah, but just wondering why my verse saying has troubled you. Its is very nice to tell your friends and family members verses from Quran and hadiths, Sahaba used to do it. If there is something bad in it please tell me. Prophet SAW said deen is naseeha (religion is advice) you advice each other about it, tell each other about it. If the people 1400 years ago could understand, i don't think we are so dumb now a days after those high degree and certificates that we will understand a thing. And its repeated so many times in Quran "Amar bil maruuf wa nahi anilmunkar" (advices of good and stops from bad/evil). So if Allah SWT says us to do it, i don't understand what problem you have.

Secondly saying a word or sentence three times, well, for your knowledge Prophet SAW has so many times repeated words and even sentences up to three times, I will do that, regarless of what you think. Thirdly, "mixed feelings about islam" sister you have a major lack of religious knowledge (i am sure you will not agree to that) anyways, Allah considers a servant Muslim only when he submits to Allah SWT and his Prophet SAW completely. Having doubts / problem in understanding a specific problem is a different thing but you HAVE to believe in that, e.g. Parda, you might not understand the feasibility or its advantages, but if it is there in Quran / hadith, you have to do it. another example, about ribah (interest) you might not understand its disadvantages, but if Allah SWT has said don't eat / take interest so do not do it.

Culture, well i agree with you that culture is related to region also, but religion is also an important player. Pakistani culture is not an islamic culture, because its a mixuture of hindu culture, muslim culture plus now a days western culture.

Sister Shirin
Yes, no islamic society exists TODAY, but we have practicle examples of the Islamic Society at the time of Prophet SAW and his Companions RAA.

Yes, Islam does not give you the freedom to make your own rules above Allah SWT's rules.

In the end, what i want from all my brothers and sisters is that we are Muslims, we should think from Muslims point of view, we should love our values and morals, we should follow our own verses / hadiths rather than the saying of shakespear or .. whatever.

Assalam O Alaikum.

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Abdulla. . .

"but just wondering why my verse saying has troubled you." --
You are mistaken. It does not trouble me in the least. I have merely suggested that it does not work to accomplish that which you are hoping to achieve. If it was a successful method than we would not have so many going astray from the right path as all we would have to do is merely sit them down and recite verse to them. It just doesn't work -- that's all. The same explanation applies to your method of repeating words. This action merely exhibits an obstinate attitude -- not one of an understanding and compassionate approach.

I often have to deal with young adults that are skeptical and cynical about culture and religion. My experience has proven to me that being stubborn with them, or simply quoting verses does not hit home. They are much more receptive to real examples where the guidelines provided by Islam can be shown "in action". They need to be told "why" to do something -- not simply to do it because it has been decreed. Most times that I have faced them I have been fortunate enough to explain away their "why's" and I have been able to convince them. Hence I believe in this method of teaching rather than the "do it 'cause the book says to do it" approach. You have every right to continue in the method that you feel is right. However, one that is truly sincere to his/her faith will try whatever works to turn people to the "right path".

"If the people 1400 years ago could understand, i don't think we are so dumb now a days after those high degree and certificates that we will understand a thing." --
This is a very important point that you have brought up. Perhaps in another thread in the Religious Forum this can be discussed. Why is it that 1400 years ago when illiteracy was rampant there was a greater following than there is today, what with all our degrees, diplomas and certificates of learning?

"sister you have a major lack of religious knowledge (i am sure you will not agree to that)" --
You are absolutely right. I have never claimed to be learned in this subject. But your comment in parentheses shows your narrow-minded approach and preconceived opinion about me. May I suggest that you step out of your judgemental attitude and give others the benefit of doubt?

Khair. . ..this discussion has been de-railed and I think that Shirin has done a good job of summarizing.

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shirin…

i agree to the point you are trying to make with this discussion but i slightly disagree to to your approach…

i do not agree to your second point…

================================================
mr. abdullah,

i always avoid getting into arguments ( not discussions) with you.. but here i feel like stepping in and talking about it..

====================================================

the point where i disagree to both of the sides is where they claim that a theocratic society as suggested by abdullah is an “islamic society” !!

there is NO such society as an islamic society and it would be better if we stick to the term

“theocratic society”

because both the sides would agree to it!

===================================================

The society of madina at the time of the prophet mohammad:

dearest abdullah.. you can not give an exaple of a society like that because that one was being run almost directly ( thru prophet mohamad) by allah himself!!

no “human society” can be compared to that!!!

as an example.. please go thru the pages of history to find out that AS SOON AS THE PROPHET DIED, THE PEOPLE BROKE INTO TWO GROUPS AND STARTED FIGHTING ABOUT WHO THE CALIPH SHOULD BE!

soon more problems poked their heads out… and resulted in the formation of two opposing sects called shias and sunnis… thus startng a constant war within the muslims!

therefore a balanced mind will conclude that such a society as seen in the time of prophet muhamad is NOT POSSIBLE without a prophet!

=========================================================

koranic concept of a state,
an “islamic soceity” :

-) the state should be supreme over religion
-) freedom of concience
-) religious toleration
-) freedom of thought and expression
-) the right of rebellion against supression
-) unregulated competition of ideas

if anybody has doubts, i am open for a munazara!

=======================================================

Hollow claims of sanity :

hollow claims of sanity…
… all mixed with profanity…
hollow claims …
of the saviours of humanity…
hollow claims of sanity…

abdullah:
“sister you have a major lack of religious knowledge (i am sure you will not agree to that)” –

muzna:
“You are absolutely right”

black jewels of insignificance:
it certainly appears that muzna is wiser than this man… It is only too likely that neither of them has any knowledge to boast of; but he thinks that he knows something which he does not know, whereas muzna is quite concious of her ignorance!

==================================================

…and i’ll wait up in the dark for you to speak to me… and i’ll open up… release me…
-black jewels of insignificance.
[email protected]
http://something.someone.somewhere.net

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Assalam Alaikum

Shirin,

Yes on both points.

Abdulla,

What Muzna what trying to say was that you cannot convince people who do not believe in Islam by quoting ayahs from the Qur'an, you can do this with Muslims but not with non-Muslims. It's just words to them. It's like someone quoting lines from the bible to you, it goes in one ear and out the other.

jewels,

State and religion are one, Islam is complete.

Freedom of thought, conscience and expression? no, definitely not true.

Religious tolerance is limited to just Christians and Jews.

the right of rebellion against supression? oppression?

unregulated competition of ideas? I don't exactly know what u mean.

sorry for being so brief.

Assalam Alaikum

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Muzna....You did a great job. Very artistically you pulled out your sentences of giving threat....You are enjoying full rights of director here.

For closing of other threads, I don't need to mention any specific one, people can go to closed threads and see what happened to them unless you change them using your director rights.

For my other questions...you have given answers to Abdulla and I can clearly see what you meant. Just playing with words can't hide what is in one's head.

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Precious. . .

I would love to answer your questions and address your claims . . . but you need to substantiate them first. I cannot address that which does not exist.

I have not changed or edited or deleted any portion of what I said. Had I done that you would have seen a message at the bottom of that particular post stating very clearly that the post had been edited. Please clear your mind of such baseless suspicions.

I have no need to hide behind my position as Director, Administrator, Moderator or even a nick, such as "Precious", when I state my opinion. You see. .this is another part of my faith -- saying what I believe and having clear, honest and sincere intentions.

"Just playing with words can't hide what is in one's head. "
Wow! Are you suggesting that you can see what's in my head? That's amazing! Teach me that trick! I may not be as sharp as you but I am willing to learn.

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'

[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

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Assalam O Alaikum

First of all my apologies to sister Muzna for saying that sentense, about lack of knowledge, Astaghfirulla Alazeem, Allah SWT doesn't like proudy people. and Allah SWT says in Quran, "Allah knows and you know not" so, please accept my apology.

As far as saying verses is concerned, do you know how Hazrat Umer turned to Islam ???? Yes he heard some verses from Quran, a few only which changed him from a Kafir to a Muslim. Do you have any doubt about that ? And tell me whose words will have effect, ours or Allah SWT's. and as far as reasoning is concerned Allah SWT has given reasoning/ logic also in Quran.

Quran is a mojiza, there is cure for many diseases in Quran, there is cure of magic in Quran. Sister, please never think that our words are more powerful, more effective and more convincing than the words of Allah SWT. An example of this is Yousuf Islam, (the famous british singer, Cat Stevens) whome Allah SWT gave hidaya from Quran.

Remember Allah SWT gives a challenge to Kuffar in Surah Bakara to make even one ayat like Quran and then He Himself say that they cannot make. I do not say that giving logics is bad rather it is good but you have to give logic after the words of Allah.

Another point is, most of the people here are Muslims, so what i expect is if i present a verse no Muslim is able to reject that plus he believes in it, as it is a part of his / her iman. And for Muslims, it is not permittable to reject what is in Quran whether or not they understand its logic.

Believe me sister if you quote a verse or a hadith in your daily conversation, your statements will be short, complete, convincing, effective and respectable. e.g. if i have to convince a Muslim that Mushrik will not go to Jannah, i may have to spend my whole life (without Quranic / sunnah evidences) but if i just show him an ayat from Quran which says Allah SWT has made Jannat harram on Mushrik, he / she may understand and believe. But then, there are people regarding whome Allah SWT says Khatam Allaho Ala Kulubaehim wa ala sama'ehim ... that Allah has put a stamp on there hearts and hearings ..

And why so many people are going astray, oh we should pray to Allah SWT that we may not be one of them, because what is the difference between them and us, hmmm, i think our names are somewhat Islamic, that too, nowadays are diminishing. When muslims were MUSLIMS Islam was spreading like anything, i ask all the people here how many non-Muslims have you invited to Islam. Even me none, so how can we say that Quran is naozobilla ineffective. Our hearts / brains have become ineffective because we believe in something and do not act according to that, our ears have become ineffective, we hear but cannot understand, our mouth has become ineffective, we say, but no one believe / get convinced, our eyes have become ineffective we see but don't learn from it.

Brother Mudassar
Who is a non Muslim here, i am quoting verses here not in between non Muslims. Even if there are, brother i already told you the effectiveness of Quran, and you know better than me.

Brother precious
No ghussa brother.

In the end i will request all my muslim brothers and sisters NOT TO attend any new year parties. Its HARAM. I am searching for a hadith regarding it, Insh' Allah as soon as i get it, i will present it to you.

Wa ma alina illalbalagh
Jazakumullah Khair
Assalam O Alaikum.

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Rubiya. .. to you and others sincerely participating in this thread. . .

My apologies for allowing it to go off track.

And my closing comments to Abdullah saheb. . . for someone who claims that quoting verse will keep my statements "short, complete, convincing, effective and respectable" -- you sure seem to have a lot to say to convince others.

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Abdullah....I am not making Ghussa...

Muzna...You are right, the statement of message been edited comes for all participants , if edited but not for director if he/she wants....Anyway, you know it in yourself the truth.

Rubiya Nur....You seem to be some psychological patient. In every discussion you keep yourself with the one who is on negative side and give supporting remarks which usually are very insulting....

Okay people go ahead and discuss whatever you want....I am out of this discussion.

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mudassar saheb,

thank you for you "comments" on he points i collected... they were not needed though!

those points were collected after a deep study on the topic and keeping in mind the explanations and ideas of all the muslim-philosophers prior to modoodi.. ( modoodi not included) ...
i have strong and direct supportive evidences from the koran and well yur input was unwanted and unnecessary...!! ( not too mention COMPLETLY wrong!)

baat zaroor ho gi..

=====================================================

koranic concept:
-) the state should be supreme over religion

molvi's concept as stated by mudassar:
-) State and religion are one, Islam is complete.

supportive evidence:
please read and understand chapter 109, the unbelievers, i would also suggest to analyse the topic in the writings of the learned.

Say, 'would you then dispute with us concerning God, who is our lord and your lord? our deeds belong to us, and to you belong your deeds; Him we seve sincerely.
( from chapter 2, the cow)

===================================================

koranic concept:
-) freedom of conscience
-) freedom of thought and expression

molvi's concept as stated by mudassar:
Freedom of thought, conscience and expression? no, definitely not true.

Supportive evidence:
very clear verses have been sent down in this regard..

if God had willed, he would have made you one nation but that he may try you in what has come to you.
( from chapter four, the table)

=======================================================

koranic concept:
-) religious toleration

molvis concept as stated by mudassar:
Religious tolerance is limited to just Christians and Jews.

supportive evidence:

the whole chapter 109 , the unbelievers CLEARLY states ,
"to you, your religion, to me my religion"
and it does not mention jews and christians only.. it says UNBELIEVERS! kaafiroon!

=============================================================

i tried to be short and only presented ONE out of many many verses which favour my point of view, and in the light of which i thought myself worthy f coming here and talking about this subject.

now that i have mentioned CLEAR koranic verses...

"As far as saying verses is concerned, do you know how Hazrat Umer turned to Islam ???? Yes he heard some verses from Quran, a few only which changed him from a Kafir to a Muslim. Do you have any doubt about that ? And tell me whose words will have effect, ours or Allah SWT's. and as far as reasoning is concerned Allah SWT has given reasoning/ logic also in Quran. "<

=======================================================

laughter, the best medicine:

->"allah SWT doesn't like 'proudy' people"

->"just playing with words can't hide what
is in one's head"

->"there is cure for many diseases in Quran"

->"there is cure of magic in Quran."

->"When muslims were MUSLIMS........."

->"our mouth has become ineffective"

->"In the end i will request all my muslim brothers and sisters NOT TO attend any new year parties. Its HARAM"

->" Rubiya Nur....You seem to be some psychological patient. In every discussion you keep yourself with the one who is on negative side and give supporting remarks which usually are very insulting"

( keeping in mind he himself does the same, supporting the "positive" point of view of abdullah)

==================================================

i hereby end this discussion from my side because my point of view has almost completely been expressed.

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Jewel....whats the point...what you are trying to say...Whats this all about. When someone tells the quranic verses, you turned to be against him and now stating them yourself? By the way your past postings and remarks and the sentences which you have posted in various other discussions are not in support of your behaviour which you are trying to show here. You want to tells us that you are the only one who has brain and the rest are dumb???

You like someone to support negative altitude too occassionaly?