What would happen in an "Islamic" society?

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I wanted to share a story with you and find out what you people think.
I have a very dear friend and colleague- European, not desi, who has lived a somewhat traumatic life. Divorced parents, brought up by servants, lots of moving around, no emotional stability.

She was at university when she met and a man - and got pregnant. She didn’t marry him - for some reason she realised she’d be in even more trouble if she did. After that baby was born (she had been living with him until then) she left him and went out looking for a job, baby in tow. (BTW man no 1 has been in mental hospital a couple times since then) She struggled for months to make ends meet and look after her daughter until she met another man. They fell in love and got married. They have had two more children since then. They are a loving and devoted couple, and have been through many financial problems, but they are one of those couples it is a pleasure to be with. Her husband treats all three children as though they were his own. She is an intelligent, happy, useful member of society.

Because we don’t live in a society that condemns unmarried mothers, she was able to keep and bring up her baby. Because she met a man who didn’t consider her a “used” piece of goods or an immoral woman, she was able to pick up the pieces and turn her life into somethiong positive and useful and now spends a large portion of her time helping others.
She realises her mistakes and is spending a lot of energy to make sure that her daughter never makes the same mistake.

But I ask myself, if she hadn’t been in a liberal tolerant and western society, what would have happened?

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well if she was anywhere else they would have condemed her to eternal hell judged her and sentenced her even though no one has the right to do that except the Almighty

God forgives everyone it is ion the Hadith it is man who makes up theor own rules

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Dear Shirin:

To answer your question, Unfortunately I don't think she would have gotten an another chance! We are so wound up in our rigid tradition ways that it is hard for us to imagine such a behavior so we make a example out of this person in hope to avoid such future incidents. It is a Sad commentary considering that Islam is the most tolerant and forgiving religion in the world. People such as one you describe needs our support and love. We should leave judgement part on Allah. Not giving them another chance further isolate them and create more hate and discontent for the religion and its followers.

T.T.F.N

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Dear Shirin ,

Only an intelligent and wise person would ask the question you did.

Yes indeed what would happen to the girl if she lived in a Theocratic Islamic Society.

To begin with she and her boyfreind would be flogged publicly for fornication. The public humiliation would follow disrepute and social degradation.

I think it is also fair to mention that the Islamic State would provide for the child and perhaps force the man to marry the woman.

Over all I see all such intrusions in to our privacy as unessesary. Let the people make their own choices. Let them have freedom.

Stud

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HEAD GET CHOPPED OFF!!
JUST KIDDING.

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Assalam Alaikum

First of all a woman wouldn't have been able to get that close to a man in a university because in an Islamic society intermingling of males and females as it happens in unis in the west is not allowed.

Secondly was there anything to stop them from getting married?

Thirdly since in an Islamic society anyone who commits adultery gets the death penalty then where would the unmarried mothers come from, wouldn't they all be dead? In an Islamic society widows aren't persecuted.

In an Islamic society if somebody commits a sin and is not punished then the sin is upon the whole of society, also the idea of punishment in Islam is that if we are not punished for our sins in this world then the punishment is far greater in the next.

Let me put a question to you. As I have said in another post,

Why is it that a western liberal society allows women to become prostitutes rather than provide enough money for them to fulfil their basic needs?

also Why is a rapist allowed to question his victims in a court of law?

Assalam Alaikum

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Mudassar You asked the following question:

"Why is it that a western liberal society allows women to become prostitutes rather than provide enough money for them to fulfil their basic needs?"

First of all I don't really think that Western schools offer Prostitution as a career alternative. Also no colleges that I have heard of are offering Prostitution as a Major. As for "Allowing" girls to become prostitutes; I don't really think women go and ask the government or the Senate for permission. Some unfortunate women face a number of incidents in their life that force them to such a life style.
This could be Wrong Upbringing, Drugs etc.
Prostitution has existed in the East just as it has in the west. Prostitution is rampant in the palaces of Saudi Arabia, and In the Cities of Pakistan.
But I can say one thing for sure. A woman who wishes to change her life has a better chance of making it in the US than any other Eastern Country. There are plenty of jobs; there is counseling, and good clean civic administration.
Rehabilitation would be extremely difficult after a stoning or a public flogging. I do not endorse such ways in a modern society.

You also asked:

"Why is a rapist allowed to question his victims in a court of law?"

In America People are innocent till proven Guilty.

Let me also say that American Law is functional and real and not utopian like your Islamic Government that only exists in your imagination.

Stud

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[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

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Mudasser wrote:
"First of all a woman wouldn't have been able to get that close to a man in a university because in an Islamic society intermingling of males and females as it happens in unis in the west is not allowed."

All I have to say, Where there's a WILL there's a WAY.
You think in an Islamic society women dont get pregant out of wedlock?? Happens a LOT. You just dont hear about it.

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Ferhana: I think you are right saying it is men who make the rules but I think the Islamists would not agree with you.

Dilwale: I think you are right in pointing out that our problem is rigid tradition, and that true Islam is forgiving.

Mudassar:
The only thing that was stopping her from getting married was that she realised the guy was not allright. She would have been married to a nutcase.... positive for her future or her child's? I don't think so. She made another choice and time has proven her right. She was able to find a loving partner, a human being who helped her reconstruct her life and is a loving father to her children. Is she grateful for her second chance? Is she devoted to her husband? Does she realise she made a mistake? Yes, yes, yes! Would Islamic "reform" have allowed her achieve the same usefulness and happiness? Would it have increased her faith in God? No, a thousand times, NO.

BTW, does her getting pregnant prove she is a prostitute? Too bad the equivalent term doesn't exist for men who have sex with women they are not married to. Men don't get pregnant so they can and do get away with a lot. And the "immoral" women get condemned. Not so the "immoral" men, most of the time. That has gone on since there were human beings.... Islamic society or not. As Stud says, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, there are prostitutes in each one of these "Islamic" societies. And sometimes they are known by other names, but they are always there.

Thanks to the fact that my friend was not condemned, and despite the fact that her family could not be counted upon to help her, she not only survived, but recovered with her dignity intact, able to live a useful and happy life.

The behaviour we tend to think of as "Islamic" today involves victimisation, moralism and punishment. That means than once you have commited an error you will never be able to live with your head high. Forgiveness simply does not exist. And yet as human beings we all make mistakes. Sometimes they are really bad ones, that harm others. But because we are so afraid of being discovered or admitting we are human, of coming out and being honest about then (after all, the penalties are too harsh) we hide and cover them up with lies and hypocrisy.

I have heard that the death penalty is useful because it works as a deterrent, so the prisons will not be so full. Then what about another, more human alternative that involves rehabilitating these people?

Many highly "moral" muslims I know have indulged in immoral acts previously, but because their upbringing makes them feel so guilty about it they start preaching about the right way to live to others. That is why, on another thread I suggested self-improvement as a goal for the month of Ramadan. ADMIT IT, we ALL make mistakes. ADMIT IT, we find it hard to admit it and even harder to forgive ourselves and others.... exaggerated moralism is the result.

I also wonder if there has EVER been an Islamic utopia on earth. The very simple fact that these laws were made and these punishments carried out means that these problems have ALWAYS existed. These problems have never gone away. Someone said in another post that the prophet himself ordered or carried out these punishments. (And Islam itself says they should be the last resort as far as my understanding goes - not borne out in modern practise of Islamic law) They haven't worked. Let's try another way.

Stud: Forcing her to marry the man, as I have just said would be a case of compounding the damage! And providing for the child is not enough. The mother herself was the victim of a broken family. A child needs love and a family able to look after it first!

Jez you are right, pregnancies occur out of wedlock even in Pakistan, etc. but no-one will tell you about that or the number of illegal abortions or children who are abandoned. But if you know anyone who works with women and children they will. Just look at the work the Edhi trust is doing picking up abandoned children..... where are they coming from?

BTW, I live in Europe not USA where I think people are even less judgmental about others' personal affairs.

[This message has been edited by Shirin (edited December 25, 1998).]

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Assalam O Alaikum

Had this case been in the time of Prophet SAW, what verdict he would have given ??? BUT What ever ...

Would we have accepted that ???

Assalam O Alaikum.

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Dear Brother Abdulla,
I do not understand what you are trying to say, Please explain.
Shukria.

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[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

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I looked at all the replies and the initial question and I analyzed that none of you are condemning her but accepting west as heaven for people like her. Of course in Islam she and her boyfriend are entitled for punishment. According to shariah if anyone of them is already married and did that then its punishment is stoning till death but if one is not married then death is not the punishment, he/she should be given whips and I don't remember the exact amount, it can be found in books. If one does this by force then the victim is not entitled for any punishment.

Now, if you are a muslim then you must know that for every shariat law there is a reason and one can research freely to find out what it is but being a muslim one should obey all the laws even understood or not because Allah (SWT) has given us a very limited brain which can think only to certain extent and we shouldn't argue on points which we don't understand because Allah (SWT) is almighty and he knows it all which we can't see.

It has been proved, why their is a death penalty for doing this act. Its simple, take a look at west how AIDS caught them and it is caused by this act. Shariat is stopping this disease right from the beginning to protect others. West is struggling hard to find cure for this and still they are not successfull and that decreased the prostitution ratio even in west. Now a lot of other uncurable diseases are discovered which are caused by sex. Shariat tells us to keep one partner or so and by doing so, there are no chances of spread of such diseases. Yes its right that the lady which was described initially, later settled her life but she could have married that person but due to her future aspirations she didn't, then why she decided to get pregnant with him. Even if we consider her right then how many of those women in west who does sex with a lot of their boyfriends in different times, feels guilt for what they do. The amount is negligible. I see that in west keeping boyfriend/girlfriend is as essential as taking food and if someone is virgin than people make fun of him/her. Do you want that kind of independence?

I also agree that there is no true Islamic government on this planet and its looks more imaginative these days but that doesn't make Islamic shariat wrong. People in past used to follow these rules given to us by Allah (SWT) through his prophets in different times to implement on society for their good.

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Assalam O Alaikum

Excellent precious, jazakumullah khair.

Sister Shirin / Rubiya
I meant to say if she was in an islamic society, lets say at the time of Prophet SAW and Prophet SAW would have given them both the girl and her boyfriend punishment (ofcourse the islamic punishments). Would you have agreed to Prophet SAW or would have termed him naozobilla intolerant, illiberal and the punishment to be against human rights ??

This is an answer to your question plus (with your permission) a question from myside.

I hope this time i am clear.

Assalam O Alaikum

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Before we get too far . . I have a couple of questions:

Where in the world does an "Islamic society" exist? I am not aware of a place where all the "rules" are strictly followed.

Another question: Why do we compare a "culture" as the western way of life is to a "religion" as Islam is?

Would it not be more appropriate to compare the situation that Shirin has presented in light of the two different cultures (i.e. eastern and western)?

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muzna your question reminded me of something…

someone asked a wise man… in which country have you seen islam in its best form?
the wise man replied… england!

please also note that i am extremely offended by people using the term
“THEOCRATIC ISLAMIC SOCIETY”
because well i believe that an (imaginary)islamic society is NOT a theocratic soceity.. jis ko shak ho woh mere saath minazara ker lay!

the topic as well as the post of the originator suggest that she is comparing a western society with an imaginary islamic one.

i think muznas conclusion is a pretty balanced one…
a religion, and a society, are not comparable!

thus it is impossible to predict what will happen in a situation keeping in mind that an “islamic society” is an imaginary one… and the word “islamic” makes it impossible for us to predict as to what rules will govern the state…
abdullah and precious gave one picture as to what an islamic soceity may be…
my religion ( ahmadiyyat) on the other hand, tells me that a society CAN NOT be islamic and koranic unless and untill it is seecular!

so i would like to say that thereis nothing such as an “islamic society” .. and therefore it is but INSANE to discuss whether its gonna be good or bad!

lets not waste our time in a useless argument!

…and i’ll wait up in the dark for you to speak to me… and i’ll open up… release me…
-black jewels of insignificance.
[email protected]
http://something.someone.somewhere.net

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Thanks for the clarification, Muzna.

Jewels, I am not "comparing a western society with an imaginary islamic one." rather a western society with those that claim today to be "Islamic". I would really appreciate your telling me about your idea of what would happen in a truly Islamic society.

The purpose of writing "Islamic" and not Islamic was simply to bring home the fact that we are speaking of our own interpretations of Islam. It was to emphasise that in those countries who purport to apply Islamic law, there is a certain common denominator. And one of the most important is that Islam is an official state religion. What does this mean? Well I shouldn't have to explain it to the people here but I will try ... eg. If you are not officially accepted as a muslim in these countries you do not have the right to do many things. All judicial matters are decided according to the current interpretation of religious law, etc. So you will see that that although there are doubtless many different cultural influences, the factor that unites, shall we say, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, is Religion (yes, "Islam") not our culture.

Many European countries, including the one where I live, have had strong religious influences in the past. There have been periods where the church was the ultimate political power and the result was mass persecution. (think of the inquisition, witch hunts, crusades, etc) But christianity is now 2000 years old and I guess because of a number of reasons is past its infancy. Religion and the state are now separate and upto the choice of the individual..... perhaps this will also happen to muslims?

Anyway the original purpose of this post was to question our religious and cultural behaviour in a specific case.

Please understand, I am not saying this type of behaviour is okay or desirable. What I wanted to say was that perhaps forgiveness and a constructive approach will be more useful than moralism or vidictiveness that the current "islamic" approach teaches. BTW, this girl has also been condemned by highly religious "christian" people here but because this is not a theocratic state they can't make her life miserable.

Jewels said, "someone asked a wise man... in which country have you seen islam in its best form? the wise man replied... england!"

This is a very interesting answer..... thanks.

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Assalam O Alaikum

Sister Muzna
The answer to your first question is there is no place in the world where Islamic society exists today.

Secondly we compare western way of life with Islam, because Islam is also a way of life, a complete way of life with guidance in every walk of life. Plus culture is dependent on religion.

If you read sister Shirin's post carefully, she has not asked to compare western and eastern society, if not, the thread subject is clear. At one side there is western society and on the other side there is a society which is not western. So i took a Islamic society, no matter if someone thinks a society which doesn't give her the facilities and freedom of western society is illiberal or intolerant.

Actually the problem here is that everybody loves the freedom that western society has given and hates the restrictions the Islamic society has. AM i wrong? If i am wrong then what stops you like / favor / love a Islamic society and work for it, IS it that naozobilla you don't think it is the best or has some drawbacks ?

Islamic society is the best. No matter it is not existing now, but we have a practicle example of a Islamic society 1400 years ago, we have our goals clear in front of us, we have clear instructions, we have clear results, we have clear signs, What else we need ?

Allah says in Quran : "Laqad kana lakum fe rasoolu Allahi uswatum hasana"
that means No doubt, you have good example / model in Prophet of Allah (SAW)"

So don't you think our model personality / character should be Prophet SAW, our model society should be Islamic society, our model religion should be Islam, our desire should be to be Muslim, our destination to be Paradise, our acts to be islamic, our deeds to be good / pious, our characters to be big / strong, our liking / disliking to be according to Islam.

Allah SWT says in Quran " innaddeena ind'Allahil Islam"
which means No doubt, the religion with Allah is Islam

AND

Allah SWT says in Quran "Alyauma akmaltu lakum deenakum wa atmamtu alaikum na'amati wa radaitu lakumul islama deena"
which means Today i have completed your religion for you, and completed my blessings on you and selected Islam from you as a religion.

So for Muslims it is ISLAM ISLAM and ISLAM.

(All the meanings of the ayas are not word by word translations)

Assalam O Alaikum

[This message has been edited by Abdulla (edited December 27, 1998).]

[This message has been edited by Abdulla (edited December 29, 1998).]

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Assalam O Alaikum

Forgiveness and constructive approach is applied in some other punishments, like, for example if some one kills your son, daughter, or someone for whome you are guardian, now you have choice either you can forgive the killer, ask for blood money and the last choice is death sentence.

For adultery there is no forgiveness, no constructive approach, there are simple and straight forward rules, which has to be applied and agreed with.

The girl mentioned above and her boy friend deserve punishments, no matter if we have a soft corner for them or not. Remember once Prophet SAW ordered one woman's hand to be cut and later said if she was Fatima bint Mohammed SAW, then also the same punishment would be there.

It is not necessary that if there is no islamic society in the world rite now so we are free or have to follow an evil society, no it is not, we are never free, Islamic society is secondary, first we should make ourselves Muslims then the society will automatically be a Islamic society.

Today i remember a story i had studied in 5th or 6th standard, the moral was All that glitters is not gold, western society looks very good from outside but ultimately its gonna loose.

Playing with words is never gonna help, always keep yourself clear and straight forward. Either say you agree to whatever Islam (Quran / Sunnah) says without any ifs, buts, maybe s, and doubts or else do what ever you like to do.

Assalam O Alaikum