What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

I asked my questions first but none of the religion peddlers answered mine. Go ahead answer my questions, you seems pretty sure of yourself.

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Is that the biggest logical beef you have with the faith? anything promised for the afterlife is by definition unverifiable here. that has nothing to do with the argument you were previously making about "verifiable improvement in humanity"
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abduallah k also suffers from such simplistic thinking. So, tell me why has all knowing, all merciful forbidden man from fornication and drinking. It's a simple question.

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

It is all relevant chanda. I'll make it easy for you: Why is fornication and drinking 'haraam'? Why has 'god' forbidden those acts?

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

Im far from being sure of anything actually, but it seemed much of your skepticism was on pretty vague terms, thus my desire for specificity from you. You seem to have backed off from those arguments completely so I'll let it rest.

As I understand it, your "questions" are just:

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72 virgins in the afterlife.

Improved variety in sexual partner in the afterlife, yes, let's provide some quantifiable information about that. Thanks.

While at it: please provide proof of the after life. Also evidence that "judgment" will take place. Also, define what's "judgement" cuz a lot of religion peddlers frighten simpletons into doing "good" deeds. Also, define "good" deeds. Thanks.

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72 virgins: No proof, not convinced whether you will actually get 72 or 30 or 15 or 2 or 18 virgins, nor are all Muslim ulema, as has been stated on this board many times.

Proof of the afterlife or God or any purely religious idea: None, and scientific proof is usually never attempted (not since the middle ages anyway, post those the religious discourse evolved beyond this question), and any attempts usually failed. Quran appeals to your observation of the world, the order, the fate of civilisations in the face of posterity, the flow of history, the wonder of little things. In some people this inspires a sense of awe and a feeling that a creator might be responsible. In others it wouldnt, but that really is the best "proof" anyone could give you, but such proof is always meant to be at an emotional level, and never meant to be published in a research journal (nor would it be admissible there).

Judgement: Judgement is the final settling of accounts, and people will be sent to Heaven or Hell based on their actions while they were alive.

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It is all relevant chanda. I'll make it easy for you: Why is fornication and drinking 'haraam'? Why has 'god' forbidden those acts?

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I meant relevant to your earlier arguments about "improving humans". I dont really know why fornication and drinking are haram. I have a cultural aversion to both promiscuous fornication and boozing, but I also have a cultural aversion to sanctioned forms of sex such as sex with maids and sex with 4 wives, and many sunnies would have a cultural aversion to the sunni sahih hadies of proscribed drinking of camel urine. But I do know that Islam has sanctioned forms of conduct preferred by Allah. It could just be a spiritual expression of living life in accordance to Allah's wishes, or there could be a deep sociological/biological/mental/scientific reason. For a believer, there isnt really a difference between the former reason and the latter, as far as the end result is concerned, which is just living according to the rule.

Assuming you were the creator of a simple species, assuming for now much much much infinitely more simple than you are, suppose you laid down a set of rules for them to adhere to, would you expect them to understand the rationale of every rule? Im not saying thats a direct analogy for Allah though, but that is one example where reasonless diktats make sense.

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

Oh no, I have not. :D

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Judgement: Judgement is the final settling of accounts, and people will be sent to Heaven or Hell based on their actions while they were alive.
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How do you know that people will be judged? What's the proof?

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I dont really know why fornication and drinking are haram.
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Ok good, let's talk when you do know. Because like other religion peddlers you don't have much convincing data/facts or even arguments.

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I have a cultural aversion to both promiscuous fornication and boozing,
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I didn't ask for your personal opinion. I asked why fornication is forbidden in Islam.

Why does allah-miaN-team post such long nonsensical posts without answering the actual questions. Sheesh.

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

Okay, lets return to your arguments then. What “improvement” do you expect from a religion/philosophy/way of life, once you tell me what specific aspects of life you want to see improvement in I want to know why do you expect religion/Islam to bring it?

If you believe in Allah, then Allah’s words are proof. If you dont believe in Allah, your actually not really ready to talk about that question, and it would be illogical for me to convince you of Judgement.

Why do you expect people to convince you of Judgement when you dont believe in the Judge?

Your right, I dont have any data whatsoever. But we both do have the ability to process logic, so lets go to logic for a second.

Can you give me logical reason for expecting data on a debate that has so far not involved anything quantifiable?

Any answer I give you will be my personal opinion, even if I say “THIS is why fornication is forbidden in Islam”. I dont know any direct words from Allah stating this is why fornication is forbidden, but I do have cultural reasons for finding such a rule “right”, and I believe it is one way to live in accordance to the way Allah wishes Muslims to live.

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

This makes little sense, at least with respect to the question asked. Or are you simply looking for excuses to use the term "divine data packets"...

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

Who says there are no empirical facts? It is science today which proves the infallibility of the Quran…It is scientists today who are embracing Islam because it is their extremely high intellect and knowledge which leads them to embrace Islam in high numbers…

I will give you an example of Plato (A person I consider to be a Prophet of Allah :swt:) who defined ‘good’…According to Plato, there is something beyond human understanding, something which is beyond the grasp of human mind…It is that from which projects all goodness…When he was asked by his pupils what that thing was, he said that it was ‘good’…Not goodness, not goodies, but ‘good’ and that entity is indescribable…

Knowledge has a limit…Human comprehension has a limit…Beyond that man remains confused…When a person starts out on a journey of intellectual or scientific growth, there comes a time when that person realizes that beyond this step, nothing more can be derived…These people then turn to the metaphysical world for answers and Islam provides them the magical answers that these people, with their incredibly high intellect, can understand and grasp…

For most people ‘empirical’ knowledge is just limited to their 5 senses…They possess neither the intellectual capacity to decipher the fabric of existence nor the scientific knowledge to know what makes the fabric of existence work…Hence, they deny the metaphysical based on what their 5 senses cannot perceive…That is why the highest number of agnostics are what you’d find in the scientific world…They know their is something out there that is making all of this work…Like Plato, they cannot name it, they do not wish to limit themselves to a particular belief system of that being, but they know something’s there…

Take the example of Dr. Muller, a scientist from Germany who embraced Islam and today has written more than 7 books about Islam and its importance in the scientific world…In an interview in the Middle East, he was asked about his journey to Islam…He said it was science which led him to Islam…

Most of those who reject belief in a Creator do it not out of knowledge but lack of it…And most of those who accept belief, are those that do it because knowledge led them to it…

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

plato was an active homosexual

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

Plato was vehemently against homosexuality…

Where did you learn this?

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

there are many passages in the phaedrus that indicate socrates was sleeping with plato. the ancient greeks were notorious for their homosexuality and it was considered pretty normal. also in the symposium. unless my professors were all spouting rubbish....
i have the phaedrus at home and i've even highlighted the passages where they socrates and plato talk pretty intimate with each other.

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

a man is unpredictable . such is its nature . so it's hard to judge where one might break

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

Havn’t read Phaedrus…But I have read the Republic, and in it, he condemns it…

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

The question was: what are the empirical measures for greatness (of people)?

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

That's the biggest lie team allah-miaN likes to tell. Those are words of men not "Allah". "Allah" is not a bureaucrat.

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Any answer I give you will be my personal opinion, even if I say "THIS is why fornication is forbidden in Islam". I dont know any direct words from Allah stating this is why fornication is forbidden, but I do have cultural reasons for finding such a rule "right", and I believe it is one way to live in accordance to the way Allah wishes Muslims to live.
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I am glad you concede your lack of knowledge and understanding. Also, it's good to admit that so called 'religion' has really become a cultural practise with people following folklore without thought or reason.

You are not the only one who didn't receive a direct transmission from "Allah".

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

^ The very fact that through out this discussion, you have avoided to come up with any reasonable logic, based on documental evidence. You have also launched numerous personal attacks on folks that have questioned your reasoning. In few posts, you hatchety tried to lambaste me, without addressing directly. This forgoes even the basics of etiquttes of carrying out a debate in an articulate and mature manner. This speaks volumes about your level of intellect, brightness, and your ability to dialogue. In fact, this has demonstrated your traits to be as that of a complete whiner and nothing else. Although, I am not here to teach you the basic manners, I hope you stick to the discussion.

On other occasions, you have tried to side-track this discussion by bringing in the un-necessary points; such as fornication, preclusion of drinking etc. You have tried to disguise your inabilities to come up with comprehensive counter-arguments. Mind you, the discussion has been about the "Virtues of Faith" and not the "Virtues of Deeds".

However, this discussion has not been really 'I v You' OR trying to prove other wrong or right - at least that's what you are trying to do here. This discussion has been about the facts forming the constitution of an individual's faith, and what are the essential beliefs and elements required to strengthen it - Faith in its very nature is simple and lucid.

As a gesture to carryout comprehensive discussion on "Faith in God" - I will answer your query regarding the service of the Prophets towards humanity: The greatest and the most devoted mission of all the Prophets had been the 'concern' that how all humanity can be saved from the grevious torment of the heirafter, and achieve perpetual salvation in the good pleasures of their Lord Supreme. How, mankind can let go the loads of their own narcissistic desires, and submit wholly and completely to the commandments of Allah. How, through the effort of propagation, true Faith can be established amongst the followers; that anything and everything can happen only and only by the will of Allah, and therefore, through excercising patience and constancy, the Believers acquire the virtues of deeds and accomplishments, which will bring them nearer to their Creator.

Now, I am only inquisite about one thing and only one thing. The "FOLKLORES", which you have repeatedly quoted, in your posts to support your reasoning, I am interested to know which ones. There ought to be some attestation, or credentials to them. Please, quote them here. Support your arguments based ONLY ON DOCUMENTATIONAL FACTS and not simply, "I said so", since whatever you have said here is incoherent and devoid even of the basics of reasoning.

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

Please provide DOCUMENTATIONAL FACTS to support this point especially the existance of the "torment of heirafter". Thanks.

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

How about we play it fairly by the rules. Now, I have answered your query regarding the service of the Prophets. The ball is in your court..

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

This is the charade that team Allah-miaN is playing and I have pointed this out from the very beginning: there is no proof of any kind provided by team Allah-miaN that "hereafter" is a reality. Ball has always been in your court. You have nothing but your 'faith' to provide as a proof. But it's not good enough. Show me some pictures by Hubble or some paper by a mathematician proving that "hereafter" is a reality and not just your faith. Thanks.

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

Come on LI..don’t beat around the bush. At least pull some manual out of some epitomes of the amazons; am sure a movie buff like you must have had plenty of previous recollections.

The onus to deny the heirafter is on the ones that deny it. After all, the burden on that day will be each individual’s own. For the Believers, the guidelines from the Creator are simple yet firm, and well detailed.

Re: What will it take to shake/strengthen your belief in God? (merged)

HAHAHHAHAHA.

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After all, the burden on that day will be each individual's own.
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Says who?

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For the Believers, the guidelines from the Creator are simple yet firm, and well detailed.
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Where are they detailed? How do you know that the guidelines are accurate? How do you know that "Creator" prescribed those guidelines? Where is this "Creator"?