What will happen

[choti_jaan]

How can anybody be given a death penalty for something based on a couple of ahadees from Bukhari for something for which Quran did not specify a death penalty. Did quran made an error and Bukhari rectified that error with the help of Ahadees ? If a book which can accept that Our Holy Prophet caved in to the pressure of Pagans and Nauzoobilla took his clothes off and became Nauzoobillah Nauzoobillah naked . This is so pathetic. We the Muslim believe that our Holy Prophet(SAW) was massom ul khata , meaning Allah was guarding him and he never made these kinds of mistakes even before he became a Prophet. This puts authenticity of many ahadees in Bukhari questionable. As I said this is not the only example one more example: Bukhari contains a hadees according to which Prophet of Allah(SAW) prescribed drinking of camel urine as cure to some people. This is the prophet (SAW)who could not stand any kind of filth to touch his clothes , how can he prescribe drinking of urine as a cure ? Following is the hadees with reference from Bukhari.

Narrated Abu Qilaba: "Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)"

Now don't go and google this hadees and try to prove that Camel urine in fact is a cure . I already know all the rebuttals on this hadees but none of them can convince me.

The Prophet prescribing Camel Urine as medicine:

First of all, let us clarify the reason and story behind the prescription. Some people had become very ill at the time of the prophet, and were suffering from an unknown illness. Their bellies had swollen and they were not in a fit state. Hence, the prophet said to them, that they would find a cure in the milk and urine of a camel and so he sent them out to an area where camels were grazing. These men went to this area and drank the milk and urine. Sure enough, just like the Prophet said, they were cured and became fit and healthy.

However, at the same time, evil thoughts entered their minds and they decided they wanted the camels for themselves. They therefore killed the owner, and made off with the camels. When news of the murder reached the prophet, he sent an envoy to capture the men, and when they were captured and brought before the prophet, capital punishment was meted out to them.
Having read this story, what do we conclude from it?** Unknoweledable people would have us believe that this Hadith means that drinking camel urine is permissible in Islam or reject the hadith outright. This is INCORRECT. The real meaning of this Hadith is that if a person needs to consume an impure and impermissible substance as a cure for an illness, and no other reasonable alternative is available, then it is permissible. In all other circumstances, camel urine is prohibited.**

THIS IS TO SHOW THAT ISLAM IS A FLEXIBLE RELIGION

But Mirch this is merely a SIDE POINT!!

Every hadith, itself comes with a context- just as the camel urine hadith. I wish I could tell you the meaning of all other hadith and the context that it came- but I do not know- That is why we have Islamic Scholars. This one I knew because they told us this at the masjid, when they were talking about the flexibitly of ISlam.

As for adultery--> The seriousness of adultery is nothing new. In Chrisitanity it is listed as one of the 10 commandments WITH Murder! And I HATE TO USE THE BIBLE TO JUSTIFY ISLAM- but I feel that this the ONLY WAY YOU WILL UNDERSTAND! EVEN the bible prescribes death to adulteres (and in many ways it was HARSHER)!!!

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

The Quran was made for ALL time. Today it seems odd that adultery should have such a heavy punishment, but this goes to show only that how acceptable adulterly has become in our society. It is just so prevalent that it seems so harsh. But at one time it wasn't like that- it was one of the worst sins - along with murder in not just Islam, but MANY religions.

One last point,

Mirch, if deregard all the hadith, then tell me how did you know how to pray? How do you know how much zakat should you give? What SOURCE DO YOU USE??The Quran does not teach us that. It relies on the hadith!

[Mirch]

The Prophet prescribing Camel Urine as medicine:

First of all, let us clarify the reason and story behind the prescription. Some people had become very ill at the time of the prophet, and were suffering from an unknown illness. Their bellies had swollen and they were not in a fit state. Hence, the prophet said to them, that they would find a cure in the milk and urine of a camel and so he sent them out to an area where camels were grazing. These men went to this area and drank the milk and urine. Sure enough, just like the Prophet said, they were cured and became fit and healthy.

However, at the same time, evil thoughts entered their minds and they decided they wanted the camels for themselves. They therefore killed the owner, and made off with the camels. When news of the murder reached the prophet, he sent an envoy to capture the men, and when they were captured and brought before the prophet, capital punishment was meted out to them. Having read this story, what do we conclude from it?** Unknoweledable people would have us believe that this Hadith means that drinking camel urine is permissible in Islam. This is INCORRECT. The real meaning of this Hadith is that if a person needs to consume an impure and impermissible substance as a cure for an illness, and no other reasonable alternative is available, then it is permissible. In all other circumstances, camel urine is prohibited.**

THIS IS TO SHOW THAT ISLAM IS A FLEXIBLE RELIGION

But Mirch this is merely a SIDE POINT!!

Every hadith, itself comes with a context- just as the camel urine hadith. I wish I could tell you the meaning of all other hadith and the context that it came- but I do not know- That is why we have Islamic Scholars. This one I knew because they told us this at the masjid, when they were talking about the flexibitly of ISlam.

As for adultery--> The seriousness of adultery is nothing new. In Chrisitanity it is listed as one of the 10 commandments WITH Murder! And I HATE TO USE THE BIBLE TO JUSTIFY ISLAM- but I feel that this the ONLY WAY YOU WILL UNDERSTAND! EVEN the bible prescribes death to adulteres!!!

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

Mirch, if deregard all the hadith, then tell me how did you know how to pray? How do you know how much zakat should you give? What SOURCE DO YOU USE??The Quran does not teach us that. It relies on the hadith!

All that what was told to you is all pathetic attempt to save many ahadees of Bukhari from being trashed.
Now back to your question of, if we disregard all the ahadees, No we do not disregard all the ahadees . We take Bukhari as just a library of Ahadess and accept the fact that he just compiled them into a library using just two criteria .
Chain of naration and repetition/tawatur.
He did not use common sense , common logic , he did not even put effort to evaluate them against other ahadees , quran , and sunnah. He did not evaluate the content and context, he just evaluate the authenticity of ahadees.
We need to evaluate the content and context using these additional criteria too . If we do that then there is no death penalty for zina. Then it is not mandatory to wash your feet to complete your wuzu. Women are allowed to be productive members of society not baby making machines. Hijab does not mean that you make women prisoners in their own homes. Women are free to go anywhere , anytime they want , it is not mandatory for them to travel only with a mahram , etc etc etc etc etc...................

[choti_jaan]

.** We take Bukhari as just a library of Ahadess and accept the fact that he just compiled them into a library .**

He did not use common sense , common logic , he did not even put effort to evaluate them against other ahadees , quran , and sunnah. He did not evaluate the content and context, he just evaluate the authenticity of ahadees.

That was Bukhari's (and Imam Muslim and the other compilers) WHOLE POINT. This is where YOU ARE CORRECT. All they did WAS verify the the authencity of the hadith and form a LIBRARY . But does it mean that it all was to waste? NO! This WAS THE STARTING POINT--> It gave us the letters of the alphabet, so that scholars may form words out of them. It gave us TOOLS, along with the Quran, to form the basis of the answers of our questions.

.We need to evaluate the content and context using these additional criteria too .

Now, this was the job of Islamic scholars. This is where Imam Hanafi, Imam Shafi, Imam Maliki came in----> they evaluated this, they put hadithes and Quran together- they studied this FOR YEARS, their WHOLE LIFE- to make conclusions - like how you should pray (because different hadiths had slighly varying accounts- and this why you see Pakistanis and Arabs praying in a slightly different manner- Pakistanis follow Imam Hanafi, Arabs Imam Shafi--but both Imams agreed that either way is correct), how you should pay zakat, what a certain hadith means etc etc.

Today's Islamic scholars job is to solve today's problems with respect to TODAYS times (such as what is fiqh on organ donation, abortion, etch), using the resources that are available to them from the hard work of previous scholars. So in a sense, Islam evolves according to time and yet the basic rules don't change. Evolution in Islam is based on the foundation of what if Muhammad (s) was ALIVE RIGHT now, what he would do. And that is why we look back to the foundation- the Quran and the hadith.

Islam is a very sytematic religion, and that is why many people use the term, the "science" of Islam. Mirch, I am only giving you part of the story, but you should study how Islam came to what it is today-it is really a fascinating story. You should also read how Alims- take Maulana Taqi Usmani- come to their conclusions. They don't just think it up from their heads, and pull judgments from nowhere. Every conclusion, every act they recommend is tied the Quran and the Sunnah- which is what diffentiates a phony from a real Scholar -->How close are their conclusions to the foundation?

[Mirch]

Re: What will happen

None of those Imams reject any of the Hadees from Bukhari , Muslim , Tirmizi etc ets. They do not evaluate the content and context of those ahadees and decide that this or that hadees is not authentic. They treat Bukhari , Muslim etc as more authentic than Nauzubillah Quran. In Quran translation they insert word to give it the meaning of their choice but they do not do so for Ahadees.
That is my beef with all those scholars is they do not want to evaluate, they want us to just take what was given to us by Great Imams and their contemporary. The great Imams had limited resources and limited knowledge at their disposal. They had the teaching of their own teachers or the limited number of books at their disposal and refer to. This is not true anymore. In this day and age everybody has access to more books , more knowledge , more scholars , more resources to evaluate the stances of all those great imams and all those old books and libraries.
There are scolars out there who are doing this job of taking the myth out of the real religion and one day Inshallah Islam will be what it was meant to be.

[choti_jaan]

None of those Imams reject any of the Hadees from Bukhari , Muslim , Tirmizi etc ets. They do not evaluate the content and context of those ahadees and decide that this or that hadees is not authentic. They treat Bukhari , Muslim etc as more authentic than Nauzubillah Quran. In Quran translation they insert word to give it the meaning of their choice but they do not do so for Ahadees. That is my beef with all those scholars is they do not want to evaluate, they want us to just take what was given to us by Great Imams and their contemporary. The great Imams had limited resources and limited knowledge at their disposal. They had the teaching of their own teachers or the limited number of books at their disposal and refer to. This is not true anymore. In this day and age everybody has access to more books , more knowledge , more scholars , more resources to evaluate the stances of all those great imams and all those old books and libraries. There are scolars out there who are doing this job of taking the myth out of the real religion and one day Inshallah Islam will be what it was meant to be.

Can you enlighten as to who those scholars are? What techiniques and new books will they be use to evaluate those hadithes that were not used by the past scholars?

What the past scholars had that todays scholars do not have were ACTUAL PEOPLE that met Muhammad (s) and his companians and related their stories-- that can never be replaced no matter how many books came on later. That infomation can never be replaced.

Also, NOBODY said that the hadith is more authetic then the Quran. NOBODY! So please stop saying that.

[unthinkable]

None of those Imams reject any of the Hadees from Bukhari , Muslim , Tirmizi etc ets. They do not evaluate the content and context of those ahadees and decide that this or that hadees is not authentic. They treat Bukhari , Muslim etc as more authentic than Nauzubillah Quran. In Quran translation they insert word to give it the meaning of their choice but they do not do so for Ahadees. That is my beef with all those scholars is they do not want to evaluate, they want us to just take what was given to us by Great Imams and their contemporary. The great Imams had limited resources and limited knowledge at their disposal. They had the teaching of their own teachers or the limited number of books at their disposal and refer to. This is not true anymore. In this day and age everybody has access to more books , more knowledge , more scholars , more resources to evaluate the stances of all those great imams and all those old books and libraries. There are scolars out there who are doing this job of taking the myth out of the real religion and one day Inshallah Islam will be what it was meant to be.

And really tell me where these scholars are coming from?Do they just read Quran and understand it or they need help from old books ?Or they are so intellegent that by just reading Quran they get everything.This is just amazing that people who were close to Prophet Mohammad (p.b.u.h) are now treated as they were nothing and people who don't know anything claims to be the most intellegent ones.And how come these people have access to more books ,where these books come from?I hope they came from sky as new muslims don't believe in books like bukhari right.