Hello everyone, i am new here, hope you all welcome me with open arms. I am curious about something, and like to know general pakistani public opinion about something. You must have seen the latest Pakistani fashion these days on this website in fashion section. What do you all say especially guys out there about Pakistani girl’s dressing up so provocatively, with so much exposure??? i hear that this is not a majority in Pakistan, still let me know your opinion. This is not any critisicm or degrading comment i am making, so plz don’t write me back why and how i can say all this. I am just asking how Pakistanis in general are reacting this change???
Though I am not the Mullah type, I do respect and value our traditions, culture and religion. Personally I think that even saaris can be a bit too revealing.
I do not mean that fashion is wrong in anyway, I will even put my head out for all Mullahs to chop off but I will say it, one does not have to wear a burqaa and all, jusrt wear something dignified.
If guys in Pakistan start wearing something that is not dignified I would be against it myself.
Hey fashion is great, keeps things fresh adds style and all, but to go the way of Dennis Rodman would be a shame. Thus.. evrythign within some constraints and bounds.
Fraudz
As long as its Monica Lewinsky we're talking about, I guess its OK. But who wants to see Pakistani sisters bare 'n naked in the name of masala and "modern type."
This proves the point
"AAde teeter, aade batair"
This is what I’d exclaim:
Aaaaapath ay!
Kiyaaaaamath Ay!
Laaaaaanuth ay!
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
Laholwala Quwath, those idotic models just are proving themselves to be one of the most ignorant people alive on Earth. Isn’t is weird, that every one is going back to the stone age. I mean, after all these years, people (as such) are throwing away all their values. If u say to them --Hey what’s modesty, they’ll be like >>> ???, Unh… ??? <<< Just think for a while, back in the olden days what was the dress code? And then compare it with today. Found lots in common eh? Yeah! Pretty scary! Oh Allah knows what’ll become of this world. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH, its a hell out here
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
already I MEEEEEEEEAN!!!
ps. Aw, this is such a good thread, and I’ve to leave in the middle
Welcome Sabeen to Gup Shup and thank you for bringing a much needed discussion to the forefront.
Like it or not folks, the younger, very immpressionable, as yet to mature female popluation around the globe dresses for the males. This makes the men's point of view and preference a key to determining the way our future generations feel about modesty in attire.
Personally, I see no charm in exposure. That which is hidden and mysteriously masked presents much more attraction than bare skin.
Fraudia saheb, please saree ko kuch na bolain . . mujhey sareeyan bahot pasand hain -- the glamour, grace and finesse of a saree is unparalelled. Yes, they must be worn with class and it is possible to wear a saree without baring oneself . . .
If there is a call amongst Pakistani women to restrict the type of clothing they wear then I am all for it. What concerns me is that this issue seems to affect the men more than the women. I find it’s the men who get all hot and bothered by it and I’d like to ask why ?
An interesting article on this topic by a Muslim woman is the “Limits on Womens Lives” which explores why we as Muslim men are so obsessed with controling women.
www.chowk.com/CivicCenter/azaidi_apr0898.html
I’d like to see Pakistani women choose to wear what they want rather than Pakistani men dictate to them.
Farouq Taj.
Well Sabeen! Fashions are nothing but just a revival, come n go thing, a kind of "History repeats itself" sort.
Nowadays Fashions is an art, to expose the hidden beauty of a person.
See even in west the Clothes shown in Fashion shows by designers are seldomly worn.
So watch them and appreciate nature.
I agree with Muzna-G that unfortunately women round the globe wear for the appreciation of men and in disagreement wholly with Mr.Farooq Taj that Muslim men dictate women's dressings, however in Pak. its true that men n women (both) wear what is liked by the opposite.
Cheers,
Kaleem
Farouq . . .
Your comment about seeing women wear what they want rather than Pakistani men dictating is confusing. .
Are you referring to general freedom of choice or is this a comment directed to the religious personalities that impose their rather exaggerated views on Pakistani women?
Further, are you advocating the option to wear "whatever the want" -- even if it's a string bikini style blouse with their sarees?
I believe this is the essence of the discussion that Sabeen has tried to generate.
Btw, I agree, the issue does affect the men more than the women and I hope that the lack of men participating in this thread is simply because the title is not entirely descriptive and not because by expressing their opinions they would run the hazard of incriminating themselves . . .smile . . . what with all the Baywatch fans hanging about here . . .
[Note: This message was edited by Muzna]
HI! I HAVE N'T CHECK THE STITE YET
BUT I BELIVE THAT WOMENS SHOULD REMIAN WITH IN LIMITS WHERE EVER THEY ARE THERE IS N'T ANY DESCRIBED ISLAMIC DRESS AS FAR AS I KNOW EXCPET FROM PARDAH AND I THINK THAT ISLAMIC WOMEN CAN WEAR ANY THING THEY LIKE AS FAR AS THEY ARE COVERED IF THEY ARE COVERED IN JEANS AND JACKETS IT'S FINE BUT IF THEY ARE GETTING NUDE BY ANY MEANS THEN THE MAN WEATHER IT'S PAKISTANI OR BRITHISH BREAD OR WHAT EVER SHOULD DICTATE THEM BECAUSE MALES HAVE GOT AN UPPER HAND ON WOMEN WEATHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.
AND I COULD N'T EXCECT ANY THING ELSE FROM BRITSH BRED PAKISTANI
Wait! Wait! HUH??? Females tend to dress up for the Males??? Okay, if that’s implying to the non-muslim folks- well, who cares then. I mean, I don’t even consider them worth dragging into a discussion. “BUT”… if its about the Muslim girls, then wait a sec… Can I ask why? That’s just totally blirrrp, (duh) if they do that. Well I mean, GeeZ! Can’t they get a life and dress up as they desire rather imposing some alien pressure or urge to dress up for the opposite. Ha! Nice life!
Okay, I’ve got a question. Why do “many” Pakistanies, (yesss UsSs) tend to back away from those that practices Hijab? Baqi dunya ko choro, pehlay is walay ka jawab deejyay 
Its so ironic, that those who practice Hijab are considered some weird beings and Argh, people make fun of them.
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY?
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
They are so stereo typed against! Oh! Its just pathetic
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
So many among us, don’t even know the philosopy behind this concept. They see it more as a “MULAH” type thing, istead of some thing nice like :)WhY? WHY?
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
WHY? Why can’t most among us accept those that practice Hejab just like the others
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
Okay, now don’t u guys preach me none or what so ever, cuz its true, they are discriminated against.
Ha! then come talk about the non-muslims :)thehe… here’s a taza, taza event which took place today
Me ‘n my cousin (Kashy, yo Muzna) were standing in the line for that roller coaster ride (West Ed, Mall). Anyway, these 2 kids were standing ahead of us. Took one look at us and were scared as hell. I was like, “Psssst Kashy! Why the heck does it seem to me as if these kids are scared of us?” She’s like: "Probably thinkin’ we have knives, guns and nukes in our jackets etc!" Well I just stood there smiling :)in a pathetic sense. Geez! I mean, where the heck do these folks get their lessons
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
Anyway, my main Qs is that why do we Pakistanies Epe’ make fun of those that practice hijab with a true heart? Can’t we accept a lil’ change at all??? Too much to ask I suppose
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
More Questions: Girls that dress up not for them selves but others, unh… what do they get out of that? Okay wait, do many not agree with the hijab concept b’cuz uh… that might dim their chances of unh.. like not getting a good job, or not being kinda descriminated against in the farngi world, or maybe thehe… thier’s a better chance for them finding a HUSBAND if they display them selves??? Ha! Most Dumbest concepts I’d say! Trust ur selves u all girls out there. Theirs’ more than putting ur selves on public display. Be strong and don’t fear any thing but Allah
No offence by this post to no one. Just felt like talkin’ my heart out. I know its all disorganized (this post) but oh well…
Gotta run,
Best wishes
Daysee Behna
Shezi, got a question for u.
What do u imply for those "MEN" that stop their women from practicing hijab (purdah is a different issue, well kinda)?
No, We can't chop their heads off either ironically. Cuz u go to jail, if that takes place. Give me a reasonable solution this time okay. I'm sure u might have come across such men who are uncomfortable by their wives or etc., practicing hijab. If not, u might... maybe some time ahead if life :)
Ha! Men has an upper hand on women eh? Yeah, tell me about that Buddy! Psst, be very, very ,very carefull...cuz there are some girls out there that epe go and train them selves and get ninja lessons. U don't wanna get kicked-- do u now :)
Okay, Shezi if eg., a woman if forced to practiced purdah or others etc,etc... how do u control her mental thinking eh? What if she's not a nice thinker when it comes to the upper chamber. Buddy, force is not the way okay. It makes situation worse. Gotta put a sub' for "man has an upper hand."
Listen not every person is a Farayshtha. I know ur not implying it, but I'm gonna say it anyway....
Don't think that "MAN" is the only way out. There is good and evil on both sides buddy.
Get a hold of yourself sis, we're counting on you to lead us through these difficult times. Now if you get stressful, we're doomed.
HI! SIS
first of all i would like to clarify that i did n’t mean to say that men has an upper hand on woemn . let me rephrase that
i belive that men are gardians of women does it make sence now SIS .
and if they are doing any thing which her husband ,father or brother think is not good then they have right to stop them . like wise women have right to stop men no one is supperior and no one is inferior but the point is that there is no restriction on pardah for men . and i as i sad about the gardian ship of men that definetly make men more power full and that’s a fact .
yes it 's very very complicated issue and i do n’t have enough knwoledge to comment a word on that .
by the way i did n’t know that that choping the head off thing has gone so famous i did n’t really mean that i was just too piseed off wheni said that he is a brother i like him .just like any other pakistani .
but i do n’t like enterprise .
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif
take care bhena and wear what ever you like because i know that you can never ever wear what i recon as indecent …
take care
bye bye
Thank you for writing back everyone. It is interesting what everyone is writing and everyone's perception about standard of clothing for females. But what about the standard Allah has imposed on muslim women??? See this is how it is if a Pakistani girl is muslim, then she should dress up with God's rules, which is cover and don't bare and no exposing. Allah has made it clear how muslim women should dress up in Quran and that should only matter to a muslim woman. Allah says in Quran there is no hardship He has placed on us so muslim women can wear any cultural clothing as long as they follow the basic guidelines Allah has placed on them. Now if Pakistani women who are muslim but choose to follow fashion for themselves or for oppoite sex, do so whatever way they like. If they ignore Allah's standard, then who cares how they dress up, if they can disregard Allah's standard of clothing, then i really don't think they would care for anyone else. Besides Allah has told muslim women not to look desirable for non mahram men. So it is unacceptable to look desirable or dress up for non mahram men. It is sad that muslim women dress up for opposite sex to attact attention.
In the end, all i will say is if Pakistani women dress up like true muslims, then there won't be any guessing games. Th laws of Allah are very clear, just look it up in Quran. What you see these days in fashion and in general among certain class of Pakistanis is what used to be in preislamic days, it is called pure ignorance. Listen guys, if Pakistanis want to pick things from the West, pick work ethics, Americans have the best work ethics, high technology, God knows Pakistan can use some, pick good stuff from the West, not the degrading things such as body exposing.
See i always ask Pakistani guys how they feel about Pakistani girls dressing up so provocative and no matter wether they are from high class or middle class or so, they always tell me that these girls must have bad characters and they would date these girls but marriage is out of the question. So in society whether one likes it or not, one's character is judged by the way she is dressed up or not especially in Pakistani society where all this exposing is rather new.
Now my next question is that do we follow God's rules or regulations or the so called society. Because in the end, society, culture would mean nothing or won't help.
Ofcourse i should say that everyone has a freedom and choice to do whatever they like to do including fashion, because God has given us freewill.
Islam truly uplifts a womans value. I do want to say that hijab brings a lot of respect to muslim women, and these women are educated, smart and intelligent, career oriented. i recently attended a weding where all girls were wearing hijabs, i was amazed how much fun i had with these girls, they were funny and full of life and chose to wear hijab, it was no pressure from family or muslim community, but a personal choice and love of God.
Thanks for reading my post everyone. I personally like to ask pakistani guys about their views on marrying girls who are very liberal in their clothing, how you feel about it??????
Kudos to deseyee behna, you are 100% right girl, FEAR ALLAH AND ALLAH ONLY.
Muzna:
[quote]
"Farouq . . .
Your comment about seeing women wear what they want rather than Pakistani men dictating is confusing.."
[/quote]
Apologies if my previous post was ambigous.
I'm challenging a fundamental value or attitude that is ingrained in Pakistani culture. The belief that Pakistani women are like children and they must be controlled. This includes dictating to them as one would to a child what they ought to wear.
[quote]
"Further, are you advocating the option to wear "whatever the want" -- even if it's a string bikini style blouse with their sarees?"
[/quote]
Here you express your fear of what may become of us if the women are given autonomy to make their own decisions. The traditional Pakistani thinking goes something like this 'We've got to control our women otherwise they'll run around naked' a view that I think is offensive to our women. A view that stems from a mysogynistic patriachel society.
I believe that Pakistani women have the maturity to determine appropriate dress codes and by peer pressure ensure that reasonable limits are not exceeded by any individual girl. If Pakistani women don't have the maturity to do so then we as a community have a serious failing that needs to me remedied.
Pakistani men should stop trying to control and suppress their women, we should treat them as equal adults and give them the autonomy that is their basic human God given right. Pakistani men seem to expend so much energy controlling and supressing their women when we ought to be using that energy more constructively. Instead of dragging women along we should be walking side by side helping one another to achieve common goals in life. It is better for us as a community to ensure Pakistani women choose to wear a modest dress (as most will) rather than be forced to. This can only come about if we give them the means to make that choice.
Farouq Taj.
[This message has been edited by farouq_taj.]
Hi Farouq .. .
Thanks for the explanation.
Before addressing your comments I had to stop for a minute and really evaluate whether I truly am speaking from "fear of what my become of us". I haven't arrived at a solid enough answer to be able to do the subject justice as yet. Perhaps you will indulge me a little and let me explain what I think I was trying to say . . .
Through my posts I was attemptin to convey the significance of the Pakistani Male Mindset with regards to women's attire. I would be the last to generalize, however, I do believe that fashions, fads, and trends affect the age groups differently -- and this observation is not specific to any ethnicity. There is always a sector of the female population that will "dress for men". And this is the sector that I am making reference to. The younger group that have yet to "discover themselves". These are the women/girls that I am most concerned with.
Once a woman, in any community, accomplishes maturity with respect to "knowing herself" and is satisfied mentally and emotionally with her psyche or personna, superficial aspects, such as make-up, jewellry, clothing etc. become insignificant. This self-recognition process, however, takes a great deal of effort, time and experience -- often gained only from the school of hard knocks.
I don't advocate control in any respect. Yes, everyone -- male and female -- should ultimately be mature enough to make these decisions.
What I am suggesting is that men in our community, by "appreciating" (and people, don't fly of the handle on that comment . . . I use the word simply for lack of better terms) the western style of dress (i.e. the outfits you see on super models) and even the styles now quite common in numerous locals of the South Asian subcontinent (i.e. the outfits worn by bollywood starlets) are indirectly telling the women of eastern roots what to wear to attract them.
How many times do you see a Pakistani male (between the ages of 16 and 30) oggle a Pakistani girl dressed in a well-covered Shalwar Kameez suit with a dupatta draped on her head? How many of these gentlemen would use THAT picture as a tiled background on their PC or a screen-saver? (smiles)
There is more to say on the subject but I will stop here and collect my thoughts. Please tell me if what I have said above still leads you to believe that I have less faith in our women than I should.
OK this is an extremely long conversation so I may as well add my bit (as usual!)
I work in an office, I wear Salwar Kameez to work everyday, prior to this job though my employer was of Asian Origin and called himself a muslim but to work in his office i was expected to dress western (knee length skirt and blouse) -- no not a uniform requirement just to fit in with the rest, these were his words.
In my view a women is the only person to judge what she should wear but what happens in a situation such as this - should you refuse the job offer or comply?
Answers please
There are two approaches one can take when faced with the scenario you describe and these will be reflected in the replies you'll receive.
The first is the theoretical approach which you'll get from individuals who will not have to make the decisions you do nor live with the consequences. They pronounce opinions from the comfort of their seats.
The second is the pragmatist who realises that we live in a real world that requires real solutions.
From a theoretical perspective as a Muslim if you follow the Sunnah of the prophet of Islam you must wear hijab to work in addition:
o When introduced to someone at a meeting who offers you his hand for a handshake you must refuse.
o You must never be alone with any colleague, so one to one meetings, staff appraisals etc are out of the question.
o You must never travel unaccompanied
o When speaking to a male you must lower the tone of your voice
o Direct eye contact with males is strictly forbidden, you must stare vacantly at a spot on the floor
I think you get the picture. You wouldn't last long in any corporate environment.
Dress codes are not uncommon in businesses both in the UK and elsewhere.
Some organisations are more strict than others. I'm sitting here at work in my jeans and if the weather was better I'd be wearing my T-shirt. Keith who sits to my left was wearing his shorts last week. However we are software engineers working for a Canadian company and can get away with it. Had we been in banking I don't think we would have made it past the front entrance.
Ultimately your employer pays you to come to work and if he wants to dictate a standard of dress then that is his perogative. You must decide whether or not you will comply with the requirements and choose to either remain or resign.
If your career prospects are good and a bright future lays ahead for you then put on the uniform and leave the Shalwar Kameez at home. At the end of the day it's your life and you must make something of it. By doing well in your job you will be in a position do make choices of your own. You will no longer be a domesticated Pakistani girl trained only for making chappattis and ironing your husbands shirts. If you want to avoid remaining or being a victim then you must be willing to make sacrifices. Leaving the shalwar kameez at home may not be such a great sacrifice. However I realise you also have to consider the reactions of your parents and other males that control or influence your life. A pakistani girl often has either a father or brother standing by with the figurative baseball bat to keep her inline. In many cases your decisions will have to take into account the cultural restrictions within which you live.
Farouq Taj.
Those girls or Pakistani models on the net are a disgrace. They all need to get married, stay at home cook nan-kawab biryani and clean.