Re: What to do about the mullah probelm in Pak?
I don't think you'll solve the mullah problem ever unless the public in Pakistan stop supporting them.
Re: What to do about the mullah probelm in Pak?
Public doesn't have enough money to support them.
Re: What to do about the mullah probelm in Pak?
how else do they get money and power?
how else do they get money and power?
Afghanistani opiums provide enough money while there is whole black market operational around the world to buy the ammo.
......... What other parts of the country has shown "civilization"? Lawyers? Ministers? ISI? Military? Police? Judiciary? Politicians? ..
Agreed. they all may be rotten to the core. But no body, and I mean nobody signgicant in these non-talib organizations is suiciding, or blowing girls schools etc. etc.
......... Its not really "tribals" who are the root cause of our problems, tribals are only the "tool" in creation of this problem.
Muddying up the waters! eh!
It is not tribals who are destroying the girls schools?
It is not tribals who are sucide bombing inncoent childrens.
yes it is the farishtas decending from sky who do all that stuff, tribals uncouths are just sitting around smoking Hukkah pipes.
Sorry ehtasab bro! This was not I expected from a so called "educated" class to come to the defense of animals called talbs.
Afghanistani opiums provide enough money while there is whole black market operational around the world to buy the ammo.
the opium money may be a part of it but look at how widespread and deep their infrastructure, support structure and bench strength is. I guess there may some Saudi funding happening too.
The 'power' I was referring to wasn't fire power but influence and support of the people. They seem to enjoy whole town-fulls of refuge to live train and recruit from. That cannot be just by money and fear of guns - there has to be philosophical nerves they're touching, in this case religion
the opium money may be a part of it but look at how widespread and deep their infrastructure, support structure and bench strength is. I guess there may some Saudi funding happening too.
The 'power' I was referring to wasn't fire power but influence and support of the people. They seem to enjoy whole town-fulls of refuge to live train and recruit from. That cannot be just by money and fear of guns - there has to be philosophical nerves they're touching, in this case religion
You want a pakistani perspective? Pakistanis (majority of them) believe India has a hand in wanting to destabilize Pakistan.
Wanna sound credible? You can't. Most people here have hard time believing anything you say because you're not Pakistani so your perspective is biased. And it apparent.
I suggest you leave Pakistani Affairs to the nationals, and worry about your own nation.
As far as the mullah problem is concerned. It's a no-brainer, EDUCATE Public. Lack of knowledge leads to ignorance, and that leads to being left vulnerable to misinformation.
Re: What to do about the mullah probelm in Pak?
^ that you don't believe is your problem, not mine.
Facts are - explosion of terrorism in Pakistan affects the whole world, terrorists recruit big time in Pakistan and the mullahs aid significantly in that process. In other words, this is NOT a Pakistani affair but a global threat we are discussing.
Saying things like "educate public" and "open & transparent govt" etc all sound good but don't mean anything in practical terms unless there are some specifics. What are you going to educate the public about? Try telling the people in Pakistan that what they know about the west is all wrong and they should get educated about the west to stop supporting the mullahs - you'll be tarred
^ that you don't believe is your problem, not mine.
Facts are - explosion of terrorism in Pakistan affects the whole world, terrorists recruit big time in Pakistan and the mullahs aid significantly in that process. In other words, this is NOT a Pakistani affair but a global threat we are discussing.
Saying things like "educate public" and "open & transparent govt" etc all sound good but don't mean anything in practical terms unless there are some specifics. What are you going to educate the public about? Try telling the people in Pakistan that what they know about the west is all wrong and they should get educated about the west to stop supporting the mullahs - you'll be tarred
By educate public, i meant make proper use of the media, whether paper, audio, or visual. Bring forth all scholar and get them to condemn acts of violence.
You see, Pakistani masses are more likely to believe their neighborhood maulana or a renounced Muslim scholar, than they are to believe anything else. Majority of pakistani people condemn the violence and are fearful for the future and their well-being as well as the well-being of the nation as a whole. So the fix is not that far-fetched. They're just not getting proper guidance.
I once heard a scholar call these extremists as 'Misguided Missiles'. And i totally agree with him. Instead of using all that energy for the wrong purpose, which in turn does little or no service to Islam, they can instead present a much more humble image of Islam, the true image of Islam.
Education to the masses means the scholars act fiercely in using Quran as the guidance and quote verses that reflect the humble, forgiving, peaceful and patient nature of the Deen. This will do plenty to turn the tide on the "sympathizers" and will deter any new, potential recruits.
The problem of Jihadism is not just limited to lack of knowledge, it's a multi-pronge issue. It revolves around hopelessness, which in turn leads to total brainwashing at the hands of the wrong people, who by flashing some amount of wealth attract these youths and misquote the verses and convince them to commit such acts. It's an economical, social, and educational issue. Or atleast that's how i see it. So IMHO, widespread awareness of the right vs. wrong and the correct way of Islam is needed that coincides with the current times.
Re: What to do about the mullah probelm in Pak?
^ that sounds great. But how do you reverse hopelessness when the 'scholars' of Quran are telling the muslim kids that they are victims of worldwide conspiracy by the kafr against Islam? That is what is passing as education.
....use of the media, whether paper, audio, or visual. ...
Jihadis and socialists are using the "media, whether paper, audio, or visual. " to spread the message of hate, the message of suicide bombing, the message of sectarian killings All in the name of Islam
....Bring forth all scholar and get them to condemn acts of violence....
The very scholars are spreading the conspiracy theories, rumors etc. to push Muslims into the abyss of Jihadism. Who are you to say scholars can fix the problem. Don't you even realize that the very scholars are the "core of this problem". For how long Pakistanis will remain summun bukmun???
I know there's no political support for these Taliban-styled groups. The people don't want to see them in the parliament. Yet when it comes to their antics, like suicide attacks, taking over villages and killing Pakistani security forces, there seems to be a very high degree of antipathy and indifference, which has emboldened these self-styled ultra religious outfits. I don't want Pakistan to be another Afghanistan, so what exactly can the *people *do to deal with this menace? Please leave the government out of this and for once focus on the individuals, the people who make that country.
The root of all the is unemployment, lack of resources to all these people, illiteracy, etc. Just killing them or staying away from them won't help. One of the reasons they take these tactics is they are being paid of it and pretty much expolited on the name of Allah. I think the government and private sector should join haands and help these people find decent jobs, jobs that will help them support their families, they should help them with basic life necessaties, proper schools for their children. We have to keep in mind what background they are coming from, their level of education (which is basically nill) and find a way to reach to them. Every year we have tons of students graduating in Islamic studies, these are some of the best people that can be used to reach out to these hard core islamic extremist.
If you don't want Pakistan to turn into another Afghanistan then both the government and the private sector would have to work together. They would have to provide them with jobs and basic necessities of life. They will have to take these people into their trust and not enforce their views on them.
Honestly, it is not impossible. If George Mortison can open a girls school in waziristan and in all different remote areas of NWFP then we can too make a change if we want to.
Muddying up the waters! eh!
It is not tribals who are destroying the girls schools? It is not tribals who are sucide bombing inncoent childrens.
Agreed, its not "tribals" who are suicide bombing/bombing, its the customized-tool-tribals who are doing the dirty work.
Sorry ehtasab bro! This was not I expected from a so called "educated" class to come to the defense of animals called talbs.
I don't expect so called parhay likhay analyst to being an ignorant generalisers either, btw I am not "defending" any Talibs, rather the population which is suffering from the Talibs.
I know there's no political support for these Taliban-styled groups. The people don't want to see them in the parliament. Yet when it comes to their antics, like suicide attacks, taking over villages and killing Pakistani security forces, there seems to be a very high degree of antipathy and indifference, which has emboldened these self-styled ultra religious outfits. I don't want Pakistan to be another Afghanistan, so what exactly can the *people *do to deal with this menace? Please leave the government out of this and for once focus on the individuals, the people who make that country.
What is fundamentally wrong with this sentence? For one thing, Yes there is support. Which is why when you try to attack them, the government gets criticized. There is all kinds of support for them. Also on this forum, in the legal ranks, the judicial ones, and ofcourse the political reaks...err ranks.:)
Re: What to do about the mullah probelm in Pak?
Yes there is sizable support from the aam. The religious have braoinwashed the rest of Pakistan and it's getting increasingly radicalized.
The spread of the mullah cancer can be gauged from how there are contras within the military, the bueracracy and elsewhere.
Yes there is sizable support from the aam. The religious have braoinwashed the rest of Pakistan and it's getting increasingly radicalized.
You know this is something I do not agree with that the Mullahs are brainwashing. The issue of brainwashing has more to do with the people themselves and less the Mullah crowd. Just using the negative connoation of the word Mullah to refer to the so-called religious scholars is not a phenomenon unique to Pakistan, it is an epidemic that can be found in all countries. There are always religious fundos. In comparison people of other muslim countries do not have this issue as grave as it is in Pakistan though they also have similar Mullah crowd. The fault is in the people who listen to them and make them effective. The people in Pakistan do not have the enthusiasm to learn and properly follow the religion and consequently fall prey to such Mullahs. The root of evil is that people in Pakistan are full of rage and frustration and hopelessness. They fall pray to these Mullahs because they offer a way to release all that rage in the name of religion making it a justified cause. If the political and civil infrastructure in Pakistan had any transparency and accountability, such Mullahs would inherently get marginalized because people would not be as dejected as they are right now.
Re: What to do about the mullah probelm in Pak?
^ then youire not really counrering what I said. So if mullahs are more effective in preaching terrorism in Pakistan, sure people should know betetr but they don't.
You cannot reform and educate a hopeless and frustrated people above the din of the mullahs promsing them a glorious after life. In fact those promoses are precisely what gives them hope and so people get ensnared into the vicious religious message.
It is a hard pill to follow but the only solution I see is severe curtailment of religious practice and speech making
.....In comparison people of other muslim countries do not have this issue as grave as it is in Pakistan though they also have similar Mullah crowd. ...
I beg to disagree!
Most of the Middle Eastern countries (and some Western countries with significant Muslim population) now have an active Islamic insurgency. The difference is that the law enforcement agencies in other countries have much more power to deal with the people you called "fundos". In Pakistan we are too lenient with anyone with a beard and a mehrab on the forehead. Even the use of word "Mullah" brings out the defenders from within Pakistan and as far as from USA settled Pakistanis. How can Pakistan wage a clear cut ideological war against them in this time of confusion?
The day we quit giving a blanket respect to those with beards and mehrabs, things will improve. Right now Islamists in Pakistan are 5th columnists and suicidal to boot.
Tough times ahead for Pakistan, very tough times!
Not all "Mullahs" are a problem. One should stop using this word in a derogatory sense. We are tarring all with the same brush. Most people who copuld be classified as Mullahs may not even support these elements who are destabilising Pakistan. The Barelvi, Shia and other non-deobandi Mullahs are probably anti these. there are some Deobandi Mullahs who are probably anti-militancy but then again if they are forced into a position against them they would be seen as taking Bush/USA side.
We are allowing them to hijack the term "Jihad" which is not about blowing American soldiers up and their allies. Jihad itself has a deep rooted meaning and can be a struggle inside too. We "glorify" them when we call them Jihadies- this is how they want to be seen. Its wrong that people such as Khekheshan use "Jihadism" in a deorogatory sense in their signature. Most physical Jihads are legitimate struggles against occupying powers.
Why should people from Iraq, Afghanistan accept American domination? The Americans invaded - of course the people are going to fight back. We should be allowed to speak out against American foreign policy when its wrong and not feel we are going to be labelled terrorist.Peopel criticise Pakistan for supporting the mujahideen but what other options were available? I dont think it would be very comfortable for pakistan to have Russia or its puppets on the border. A number of people criticise saying they should never have been involved but what would have happened otherwise? There was probably no other option in dealing with Russia at that time.
A lot of posters assume that Fazul Rehman and MMA are in the same league as the militants - they are wrong. These people are obvious sell-outs that people can see through.
The assumption that these militants have no support is wrong - the 60% of the people who did nt vote might want the militants in power. There is/was support for them but their attacks on Pakistran have weakened support for them. Why should Pakistanis want to support the USA in subjugation of the wortld? The USA is not the fairest country in the world. It has an anti-islam policy and its blatant for all to see.
Islam will always be a significant influence within pakistan and theres nothing wrong with that. pakistan needs to stop the cross-border infiltration but how will that be? There needs to be a change in the system from top to bottom and that may solve it in the long term. education, equality, a good economy may some of the long term remedies but what about the short term?
Re: What to do about the mullah probelm in Pak?
I'm not the one that has defined jihad as it is defined right now in popular media all over the world. For that you need to ask the jihadists why they call themselves jihadis and than commit unislamic acts.