This is continuing from earlier discussion.
Moses could part the sea, convert snake in stick or vice verce. Jesus could raise the dead, heal people of diseases by praying, could resurrect himself from death and is living after 2000 years after his birth.
If all these things are true and believable, why people suddely want to see logical reasoning on how Kalimata rode a tiger.
[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
** This is continuing from earlier discussion.
Moses could part the sea, convert snake in stick or vice verce. Jesus could raise the dead, heal people of diseases by praying, could resurrect himself from death and is living after 2000 years after his birth.**
[/quote]
hmm - the Quran says that Jesus was not resurrected, an imposter instead was killed.
[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
** If all these things are true and believable, why people suddely want to see logical reasoning on how Kalimata rode a tiger. **
[/quote]
Well, you could reasonably ask this question if you associate Kalimata as the same sort of God that the Greeks and Romans and Egyptions saw their Gods. I think the point that our Muslim friends are trying to make is this - where is Kalimata now? Unlike the prophets you mention - who are mortal and obviously not Gods, Kali, Durga, et al should in theory still around - seeing as how Gods are immortal and all. This then, is taking the stories as literal instead of as "Myth", and without thinking of what the stories of Kali, Ganesha, Durga, Hanuman, Shiva, etc represent.
This constant bickering is bad stuff - rajasic rage certainly can't be helping one's contenance.
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited August 11, 2000).]
If i remember right, claim is that jesus did not die, allah raised jesus to himself. there was a quadiyani called jewels who used to argue on this forum that jesus died while other muslims would say jesus did not die. In fact, we often see posts inquiring when jesus is going to come back on this forum.
About forms of Kali, I amy believe it literally. What is anybody's problem?
[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited August 11, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
*If i remember right, claim is that jesus did not die, allah raised jesus to himself. there was a quadiyani called jewels who used to argue on this forum that jesus died while other muslims would say jesus did not die. In fact, we often see posts inquiring when jesus is going to come back on this forum.
About forms of Kali, I amy believe it literally. What is anybody's problem?
*
[/quote]
I don't know what anyone's problem is. No check that - I do know, I simply don't understand. To simply denigrate someone whose IshtaDevta is Kali is, IMHO, extremely intolerant, insensitive, irrational, and unintelligent. The beauty of faith is destroyed when someone claims that his own faith is the only faith.
The beauty of faith is destroyed when someone claims that his own faith is the only faith.<<
All middle eastern religion preach this...Jesus, Mohammad and Moses all said that their way was the only way. Jesus said that the way to God is only through me. Theory that there are many paths to one God is an eastern thinking.
Who said Jesus used to say the way to God is only through me . I don't want to start any argument or to support any argument , I am totally against such arguments in which the both parties neither agree on the celiefs nor the attitudes but I am giving my comment because I want to tell you What is in Quran about Jesus ,
Maida : 119-121 : And behold!Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary ! Didst thou say unto men , 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"He will say :"Glory to Thee!Never could I say what I had no right (to say).Had I said such a thing , Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine.For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden . Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say , to wit,'Worship Allah,my Lord and your Lord';and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt among them ;when Thou didst take me up , Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.If Thou dost punish them ,they are Thy servants; if Thou dost forgive them,Thou art the Exalted, the Wise."
Zakhruf : 61 : And (Jesus) shall be a sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgement).
And about Jesus return non Muslim people will make fun of it as people used to make fun of our book by pointing towards the following verses revealed 1400 years ago and asking , where is the Pharoah ? that your God made the sign for the coming people , the verses were ,
yunus : 10/90 : We took the Children of Israel across the sea;Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite.At length, when overwhelmed with the flood,he said:"I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the children of Israel believe in;I am of those who submit(to Allah in Islam)."
Yunus : 91-92 : (It was said to him):"Ah now! - But a little while before , wast thou in rebellion! - and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in thy body , that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! But verily,many among mankind are heedless of Our signs!"
[This message has been edited by Logic Bomb (edited August 12, 2000).]
Logic Bomb,
You have provided what the Quran says. What about what the Bible says?
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Originally posted by Muzna:
**
You have provided what the Quran says. What about what the Bible says?
**
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From the King James Bible, Book John, Chapter 3, where Jesus is the speaker of these words:
"16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "
Quran does believe that Mary was a virgin
"When the angel said, "Mary, god gives you a good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, -high honored shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be, "lord" said Mary "How shall I have a son, seeing no mortal has touched me? "Even so, he said "God creates what He will". When he decrees a thing He but say to it, "Be", and it is. (Al-Imran 3:45-47)
They also believe Jesus gave life to dead and cured blinds and lapers.
Astrofan,
. I think the point that our Muslim friends are trying to make is this - where is Kalimata now?
Well where are Mohammed or Jesus or Abraham or Moses now ?
The fact is religion is a matter of belief and faith.
Belieiving in Kalimatha or Mohammed is as wise and as stupid as not belieiving in Kalimata or Mohammed.
Religion begins where logic ends.
Andhra , whatever you say is wrong , the example of Pharaoh I gave still exist , the pharaoh's body was discovered in 1960s and the preidction to keep it as sign for the people to come was given in the Quran 1400 years ago , your book has nothing given any proved prediction so there is a difference in belief .
If thar or Rakhistan desert is made because of the Raam's arrow , from where the Sahara desert came into being , and from where the other deserts of the world came into being?
[This message has been edited by Inquilab (edited August 14, 2000).]
Inquilab.. jesus coming back is going to be one of signs of qayamat.. do u have evidence for that..
the point is simple. almost all religious books talk of myths and fables that do not stand the test of logic. however, if u renounce one religion for these miracles and myths, u could apply the same criterion to the rest.
ZZ , as Logic Bomb has already said about the Pharaoh , until the Pharaoh body was discovered non Muslims used to make the fun of the Muslim belief that the Allah will keep it as the sign for the people to come , we do believe it is the time for the non Muslim people to make fun of the belief about the return of Jesus and the Qayyamah as people used to make before the discovery of the Pharaoh body .
Maybe I will be not here to be proud of believing what is truth and you are not here to accept the truth , but the time will come as it came before to make the Pharaoh the 'Sign' for the people to come .
[This message has been edited by Inquilab (edited August 14, 2000).]
I've seen the Pharoahs body, it's in the British Museum in London.
His body was found in the dead sea, it had been preserved by the enormous amount of salt present.
so to the verse...
"..This day shall We save thee in thy body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! But verily,many among mankind are heedless of Our signs!"
1400 years ago, we were also told how a baby is created:
[23:13]
13. Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).
[23:14]
14. Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.
When did modern science figure out that this was how a baby is made inside the mothers womb?
Inquilab >>If thar or Rakhistan desert is made because of the Raam's arrow , from where the Sahara desert came into being , and from where the other deserts of the world came into being?
Let Hindus look for Rama's arrow.In the meanwhile you can start looking for Mohammed's horse!As also the mount from which he ascended to heaven
Let Hindus look for Rama's arrow.In the meanwhile you can start looking for Mohammed's horse!As also the mount from which he ascended to heaven**
[/QUOTE]
Andhra,
Muhammad (PBUH) never used his horse for the decent to space (heaven). Please know your facts. Now space travel was unknown a few hundred years ago but look at it today. Are you aware that the theory of relativity is in jeopardy, because scientists have found light that travels faster than light previously thought impossible. They are still working on the experiments and that can explain travel through time and making use of space dimensions. there is still so little that we know. Secondly we don't believe in the bible as it has been altered to the point of non-recognition. The final and true word is that of the Quran as per the muslim belief. There has not been a theory that has been mentioned in the quran which has been proved wrong.
The parting of the sea by Moses has been experimented with. The place where he crossed with the Israelites is in depression. If the wind is blowing at a certain angle it will creat waves that will form a partition enough to walk through. The experiment was carried out by the Christians on a smaller model. I will try finding the URL for it as well.
Quran talks about space, medicine, science etc. Things that nobody believed till a few years ago were revealed 1400 years ago. It talked about the Romans winning against the Persians when Roman empire had depleted to the boundries of constantinople. The prophecy came true as well. So there is a big difference between folk lore and facts.
The evolutionists can work forever to find the "missing link" but will never find it. The birth of Adam and Eve is no evolutionary fact, it was a work of Allah. As far as Jesus healing the sick is concerned I don't find anything ridiculous about it. there are many spiritual remedies rampant in India and the whole world in general. Recently there was an article in reader's digest that talked about a women who turned to spiritual healing after discovering she had malignant cancer and guess what it disappeared.
Try looking at the facts and then argue. I am not going to say anything about your religion but expect the same kind of reply to justify the stories that are in your holy scriptures.
Till then
Regards
1.Theory of relativity and travelling faster than the speed of light.
You are talking about ‘worm holes’ I suppose !
Scientists are still looking into it.Being Rational people however
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they are not stating that as afact, unlike you who are going by Prophet Mohammed’s going into Heaven which you have evry right to believe.
Yes I read articles on how the sea parted open for Moses for him to lead his people away from Egyptians.As I remember a combination of natural phenomenon like Hurricanes were cited as reason for it which is possible though unlikely.Why can’t they carry out the experiment on a small model and extrapolate?
Finally for me to believe the account of prophet Mohammed breaking the spped of light I have to see it being repeated.
As you know the only way we can be sure any axiom or theory to be true is when we have the ability to duplicate it.
For example if you came up with a machine or mechanism that you say will allow you to cross the speed of light, the only way I believe you is when I can verify your ability to duplicate the feat.
Think about it I can claim that all the dead babas and Gurus in Hinduism can cross the speed of light.I am safe in that there is no way to verify my claim.They are all dead and gone
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So under the circumstances your belief in Prophet’s story amounts to just that.A belief.
insulting religion.I never start that unless the others do.
BW if and when these worm holes are found,Number system has to be written up and down.
For according to Einstein’s equation rest mass increases as speed of an object approaches that of light.
At the speed of light the mass becomes infinite and the object stops moving.
Let Stephen Hawking & CO crack that nut
Yeah Andhra , you are right , seeing is believing , but you know our beief is the God is everywhere and nobody can see Him , so our belief is a blind belief since the predictions in Quran and the scientific explaination given 1400 years ago are proving themselves , thats why we blindly believe in everything it says , the time will come , when the time will be the end of this universe and everything predicted and defined in the Quran will be discovered by the humans , maybe I will be not here to see the things being proved , maybe you will not be here to accept the truth , but the time will come !!!
[This message has been edited by Inquilab (edited August 14, 2000).]
Andhra,
The theory of Einstein is still just a theory that has not been proved wrong. YET. At the speed of light whatever that is for the figure 186,000 miles per second is also now in debate the mass becomes infinity and the object stops moving. Actually the object changes its physical form and becomes light itself. Anyway these are still theories. I can live with the fact that you will believe time travel when you see it but you have seen the Pharos, you have seen and read about the parting of the sea (by the way you can do this experiment in your house by using a blow dryer and an angled tray with a small depression between it. You flow the water from up to down and blow the air where the depression is, this will lift the downcoming water into a wave that will passover the depression to the other side. You have have to try a few times to get exactly the right angle). Also you have seen the four stages of the development of the child in the mother's womb as described in the Quran. Also finger prints, the revolution of Earth around the sun and many other scientific facts that have been proved.
Quran is not a scientific book, but rather a book of signs. The idea my dear is to read it and ponder over it and it is stated that he who ponders will be guided by Allah.
I hope you will take these signs seriously and read through the book with an open mind.
Best regards
Do u mean to say that what moses did in parting the seas was not miracle, but a trick and anyone can do it. c'mon, that is blasphemous.