[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ: Do u mean to say that what moses did in parting the seas was not miracle, but a trick and anyone can do it. c'mon, that is blasphemous.
[/quote]
I thought you raised the question about folk lore? Now when I give you explanation of what can be explained you attribute it as Blasphemy. Good going, atleast I have an explanation that is workable even to agnostics and atheists.
How about your folklores or miracles, since you said you believe in them. Are we going to see any explanations or you are just going to ridicule the Quranic signs?
It is blasphemy because people believe that moses did it since he was prophet and had special powers. Are u going to tell that he was a simple trickster who did not reveal the tricks to people.
“Another scientific error would be the Koran’s stance on human
reproduction. While many Muslims have promoted what the Koran states regarding sexual reproduction and human development, much of it is wrong. First there is the popular verses that talk of sperm being made into blod clot, then the blood clot being turned to bone, and the bones being clothed with flesh (Koran 23:13-14). Muslims love to cite this verse not realizing the scientific error written in it. It claims that the bones are formed, then clothed with flesh. This is an incorrect description of embryonic development, as the flesh forms first, and bones form later. The author(s) of the Koran clearly did not understand human reproduction. This can be seen in the claim that sperm is from a place between the backbone and the ribs (Koran 86:6-7). That would mean sperm originates in the kidneys, not the testicles. If the Koran was the written word of some supreme being, such errors would not be present.”
Rational.. u want my explanation for miracles in Hindu books. My explanation is simple. kali mata has divine powers. so she can take a tiger for ride. any onjections?
ZZ, a lot of the folklore tales of christians and muslims and jews is based on a lot of Mesopatamian civilisation. They got the idea of the devil from the Zoroastrians,when the Jews were exiled. The middle eastern folklore is not superior to any other folklore,it's just that they have dominated the political landscape wether they be Christian or Muslim,you say anything,and you would have been accused of blasphemy. There are probably some logical explanations for some things.for example the parting of the Red Sea did not happen as such,but there is a theory that it was maybe that the sea-levels for the Red Sea were lower for some reason. Another explanation for example for when Joshua went to Jericho and blew his trumpet/horn and the walls of Jericho came tumbling down,but archaeologists have discovered that Jericho was prone to earthquakes and was probably destroyed by one and could have been abandoned and when Joshua got there,there was no-one there.
In the West in many movies they have shown your Kali Mata as the EVIL GOD out to kill and never have any Hindu try to stand up to a white man/Hollywood and say anything, but here your defending it.
Remember Hinduz belive in many GODS and there can’t be more then one GOD cuz as you can see it’ll be like 2 husbands under running one family, which is never possible because them both will have there own ideas/ways for the family, and so will GODS will have for their universe and if this was true then the universe will have been destroyed by now, If one said “I want Earth to be here” and then Other will have said “NO i want it to be here.” get my point?..and this is one of the main reason why relationships in the west dont last long because most often the wife tryz to act like the husband. Like I said earlyer, that it is comman sence that more then one superpower cannot exist in one household/universe!
If you read your Hindu Holy Book it sounds just like a comic book, with all its fancy weapons and different shapes of GODs and superpowers. These kinda stories will impress good old farmers, not others with common sence.
It is not ISLAM that is at Risk, since being the biggest Riligion in the WHOLE (WHITE) WORLD, it is the unperfect that is losing there bilivers
Sorry for my spelling…if there is a mistake me in hurry
dear astrofan,
you are trying to make a mockery of islam with your opinion of embryology from the quran.
are you a embryologist, astrofan? why dont you interogate a convert to islam who is an embryologist for a living.
their are many books WRITTEN BY CONVERT SCIENTISTS AFTER READING THE QURAN. TRY READING "THE bible quran and science by maurice boucaille.......have a nice read!
why are so many scientists becoming muslims, do they read the quran and its science.What contradictions and subtle errors do they see?
[quote]
Originally posted by sufimaster:
**
dear astrofan,
you are trying to make a mockery of islam with your opinion of embryology from the quran.
are you a embryologist, astrofan? why dont you interogate a convert to islam who is an embryologist for a living.
their are many books WRITTEN BY CONVERT SCIENTISTS AFTER READING THE QURAN. TRY READING "THE bible quran and science by maurice boucaille.......have a nice read!
why are so many scientists becoming muslims, do they read the quran and its science.What contradictions and subtle errors do they see? **
[/quote]
First, those were not my comments, but rather, the quote was from the guy (A Muslim apostate) who runs the website - Free Thought Mecca.
Is Cooldude an embryologist? Is that what makes him allowed to say that the Quran describes correct embryology? Why don't you ask him the same question? Are you an embryologist to say that I am wrong? Or is the Quran simply correct because the number of converts is proof that the Quran is correct?
Possibly scientists are becoming Muslims because they think it offers a message of peace. Maybe they are becoming Muslim in spite of scientific errors because they come for the spirituality. Maybe they come because they are frustrated with the direction of their Christian faith, but want to stay within the Abrahamic tradition. Have you asked them, or do you just assume?
The Quran is not quite the oldest literature to describe scientific truths - many texts from many older cultures describe things that science is "proving" today. Islam is not the first bastion of scientific truth, and certainly is not the last.
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited August 15, 2000).]
most scientists are atheists so they cant come to islam just cos of abrahamic traditions. Maurice boucaille came to islam cos of reading the qurans science aspects. There is others and now they have written books aboout the quran and science.
you said islam is not the oldest religion..... iknow! but i didnt know that other religions like hinduism have science in their scripts. is their any websites or books you can refer me to please.
My dear Astrofan. I find you the most receptive of all the Indians on the net. Please read the explanation below with an open mind and know that the only author of the book Quran is Allah and it has no mistakes as you mentioned:
The Qur’an has an extensive amount of information on the growth of the human embryo and fetus, especially the former. Before presenting this information, it may be helpful to provide a brief outline of human development in the womb as modern science understands it. [10]
1.An unfertilized egg is produced by the female, and is subsequently placed in her Fallopian tubes.
2.The male cohabits with the female, and a single sperm cell fertilizes the egg.
3.The fertilized egg retreats into the uterus, and attaches itself to the uterine wall.
4.Embryological growth (roughly 3 months).
5.Fetal growth (6 months).
6.Birth
We will examine some of these stages in greater detail as the verses in the Qur’an require. First, however, two verses which give a general overview of human
development:
[71:14] ...seeing that it is He (Allah) Who has created you in stages...
[35:11] And Allah created you from dust, then from a drop...
The first verse is a very general, yet accurate description of our creation as coming in stages (see the six-step outline above).
The second verse puts some perspective on the whole affair: how man originally came from dust (Adam), and then from a drop.
There are at least four specific details regarding human development in the Qur’an which modern science has revealed only
within the last few centuries, and in some cases only in this present century. The first concerns the emission of semen:
[75:37] Was he (man) not a drop of semen emitted?
In spite of the large amount of liquid which can be produced by a man during human intercourse, this verse emphasizes that only a small drop of it is important.
The second important detail in the Qur’an on human development is the description of the fertilizing liquid (i.e. semen):
[86:6] He (man) is created from a gushing liquid.
[76:2] We created the human from a drop which is a mixture...
[32:8] Then He (Allah) made his (Adam's) progeny from a quintessence of a despised liquid.
The second and third verses relate to the contents of semen. Modern science has established that semen is in fact a composition of different secretions which come
from four different glands during ejaculation: the testicles, the seminal vesicles, the prostate gland, and the urinary tract glands. The actual sperm cells come from the
testicles; the other three glands produce no fertilizing agents. The Qur’an goes farther than just informing us that semen is a mixture of liquids. It tells us in [32:8] that
only the “quintessence” of the liquid is used (the “despised” comes from the fact that semen is emitted from the same place as urine, and thus may be despicable in
some people’s sight). The Arabic word for “quintessence” in this verse signifies extracting the absolute best out of something. The numbers tell the story: a normal
ejaculation involves about 3 ml of fluid containing between 120,000,000 and 150,000,000 sperm cells. Of these cells, only one fertilizes the egg in the female, and
this is the point which [32:8] alludes to [15].
A third detail of human development mentioned in the Qur’an concerns the newly fertilized egg:
[75:37-38] Was he (man) not a drop of semen emitted? Then he did become something leech-like which
clings...
Recent observations of the fertilized egg in the womb have revealed that the egg literally implants itself into the uterine wall. It
“clings” in the strongest sense, and it remains like so in the early stage of development. On top of that, the developing organism
acts as a leech on the female host in the sense that it draws its sustenance directly from its mother’s body [10].
Finally, the Qur’an gives a fascinating account of embryological development (the first three months) in the following verses
(certain words have been transliterated directly from the Arabic):
[23:14] ...We made the drop into an ALAQAH (leech-like structure), and then We changed the
ALAQAH into a MUDGHAH (chewed-like substance), then We changed the MUDGHAH into
IDHAAM (bones, skeleton), then We clothed the IDHAAM with LAHM (flesh, muscles), then We
caused him to grow and come into being as another creation.
[22:5] ...We created you out of dust, then out of a drop, then out of a MUDGHAH, partly formed and
partly unformed...
Verse [23:14] divides embryological development into four stages. The first stage picks up right after fertilization (“drop”), and is characterized by an ALAQAH or
“leech-like structure” which describes how the egg implants itself into the uterus (see above).
The second stage describes the embryo as evolving into a MUDGHAH which means something which has been chewed
(especially a piece of meat), or which has the appearance of having been chewed. This seemingly crude description is in fact
quite accurate: after the fertilized egg lodges itself in the uterus, it begins to receive its first nutrients and energy from its mother.
Consequently, it begins to grow especially rapidly, and after a week or two it looks like a ragged piece of meat to the naked
eye. This effect is enhanced by the development of small buds and protrusions which will eventually grow into complete organs
and limbs.
The next two stages described in verse [23:14] tell of bones being made from the MUDGHAH, followed by the “clothing” of
the bones with flesh or muscles. If we follow the progress of the embryo with our own eyes, we find that after approximately
four weeks, a process called ‘differentiation’ begins, where groups of cells within the embryo transform themselves to form
certain large organs. One of the earliest structures to develop in this stage is the cartilaginous basis of the human skeleton (in
subsequent months, the cartilage hardens or ossifies). It is followed soon after by the appearance of a host of other organs
including muscles, ears, eyes, kidneys, heart, and more. This maintains the order described in the Qur’an. Verse [23:14]
concludes with the growth of the organism in the womb (and simple growth is the primary characteristic of the fetal stage)
followed by its birth.
Verse [22:5] adds one more interesting note on the embryo. In this verse, the MUDGHAH is qualified with the phrase
"partly formed and partly unformed."
As alluded to above, our modern observations of embryological development have revealed how different structures and organs develop one after another through
differentiation. This gives rise to unusual situations where the embryo is unevenly formed (i.e. lungs but no ears for example). [11,16]
Now that, Rational, is a great reply to my original post on embryology. Thanks. The fact that I don’t know Arabic will always hinder this sort of discussion, I have to rely on translators. Do you know anything about the testicle vs kidney issue that the Free Thought Mecca guy brought up?
I would also like to apologize for my perceived tone in my last two posts on this thread - not quite what I had in mind when I started.
Sufimaster - I can’t currently give you links to sites that describe the science found in the Vedas - mostly it is in books that I have read in my temple, and posters that are published in it’s classroom walls. I will try to find out exactly what the Vedas say that has been “discovered” by modern science, it’ll take me a few days. The best I can do right now is an interview with an Indian professor at Louisiana State University - http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/nov/18inter.htm
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited August 15, 2000).]
Don't worry Astrofan. We all have our bad days and moments. Time and again we get sucked into situations where we loose our cool and regret later. Anyway, I am working on the back and ribs part (86: 6-8) as it pertains to both the genders. The ribs are associated with the female biological orientation while the back refers to the male orientation if you have knowledge of arabic and not go for just the literal translation. I have a rough draft but once I am done with research I will post it on for all to read.
Take care
. I think the point that our Muslim friends are trying to make is this - where is Kalimata now?
Well where are Mohammed or Jesus or Abraham or Moses now ?"
Muhammad died, Abrahim died, Moses died, Jesus was lifted up to heavens but will come back and die like an ordinary human being. All prophets died because they were Human Beings, so did kali mata die?if yes how can god die?A prophet may be persecuted and crucified, because a prophet is not supposed to be almighty,but "god" is the creator of death!life!etc, how can god can't protect himself/herself from death?
[quote]
Originally posted by Masooma:
**Andhera states
Muhammad died, Abrahim died, Moses died, Jesus was lifted up to heavens but will come back and die like an ordinary human being. All prophets died because they were Human Beings, so did kali mata die? if yes how can god die? A prophet may be persecuted and crucified, because a prophet is not supposed to be almighty, but "god" is the creator of death!life!etc, how can god can't protect himself/herself from death?
**
[/quote]
No, in these terms, Kali Mata is not dead. However, the worldly incarnations of God (avatars, sons and daughters of God) have died because they were human - people like Rama, Krishna, or any of the 7 other Avatars of Vishnu.
The key becomes - if you follow the Vedanta especially - what happens if you realize that you are God, that your basic essence (Atman) is the same as God (Brahman)? That not only you, but your neighbor, your friends, everyone, shares this common characteristic - that they are also God. This infiniteness is inside you, but hidden. If that realization happens, then what does it matter where Kali Mata is? Because then, everyone, including Jesus, Mohammed, Abraham, is truly God.
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited August 15, 2000).]
An interesting aside here is what Swami Vivekananda thinks of Muhammed. Vivekananda is sort of a personal hero for me, and many other Hindus - a guy who laid down spiritual Hinduism for the whole world to see in the 1893 Chicago Parliament of Religions. Vivekananda puts Muhammed in the class of Raja Yogi - someone who meditated and tried to find out the truths of the world by getting away from the chaos that surrounded him. His devotion led him to a spiritual breakthrough - a discussion with Gabriel (that is the angel's name, right?) After that Vivekananda goes on to say (blasphemously, I suppose) that Muhammed's revelations are somewhat skewed, that since he wasn't a trained yogi, that he was unable to correctly interpret the signs given to him. Now, whether Muhammed was right or not, that is a different issue. The only reason I bring it up is because more than one person has tried to fit Islam into the Hindu framework, and see how the pieces fit. It doesn't always work, and so, trying to fit Hinduism into the Islamic framework will also lead to frustration ("what the heck were those Hindus thinking?") You have to come at it completely differently. From that view, I would recommend starting with Buddhist literature - there is so much more of it available in the West, and with better introductory material.