What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Lets go back 6 years back and see what was the situation, there were no “terrorists” in Pakistan. There were no suicide bombings in Pakistan or in afghanistan or in Iraq. Islam wasnt divided in moderate, radical or other types,Madressas were there like they way they are right now, same teachings were there. Govt was funding and preparing these “mujahadeens” against India and Iran sponsored armies ( with saudi support ofcourse ) for its own purpose ( Taliban also included ). Weall “moderate” muslims and those all extremists were happy and enjoying life.

Then America decided enough is enough, It asserted on us the idea/believe that these people “mujahadeens” attacked us and are “terrorists”, It gave our military money + stick to stop feeding these people and abandon them. Then phantom Al-Qaeeda came into existence and America told everyone in the world to hunt down this phantom Al-Qaeeda. Then America changed its strategy instead of fighting directly it thought why not ask our paid dogs to hunt these people down. So it asserted the Idea that these people are enemies of Pakistan and must be eliminated. These people then banished and were dispersed ( in thousands ). Musharraf was given this task as he had been strategically brought in power for this purpose, and since musharraf needed public support so he raised the idea of modernized Islam ( practically socialism) to kill these people( he didnt had money to feed them or hide them ), Since we are all mostly socialist ( so called Muslims) we liked this and we were further brain washed that these “jehadis” are terrorists and are attacking us, we supported musharraf as he promoted “liberalism”.

And now we as a nation are so brain washed that we are divided in two groups as evident. We the “modernized” people believe that “jehadis” are terrorist and we are in dire danger from these fanatics, they the “jehadis” are thinking wtf we were fighting for Holy cause and these people supported us and now they want us to be eliminated. And now they are searching for shelter,support for their survival ( remember what our GOD America told us ).

this story will unfold itself in future, but who is benefiting from it.
1 - Army Cooperation
2 - India
3 - Iran
4 - Above All America
5 - We the “moderate” people think we are benefiting too.
6 - Israel ( I know we have to bring Israel in every problem we have :slight_smile: but i’ll continue the legacy )

Now who is losing
1 - We the Muslims ( even we are socialists or so called Muslims)
2 - China
3 - Pakstan

Now we should instead of arguing/fighting on current situation should try to evaluate what lead us to this situation, We “moderate” people were not enemies of these “jehadis” infact we supported them in “kashmir” and these “jehadis” gave their lives for our safety ( in proxy war and we used them basically).

If you think that above analysis is not biased and reflect some level of reality then I think we “moderate” people should atleast get our belief correst, instead of blind faith in (Musharraf/Bush/Talibans) Ideas. We should promote unbiased thought process and that is real liberalism.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

Very well written but now moderates gonna label you " Fanatic Mullah " after reading your non-biased analysis.

akhir is main mera kya kasoora hai!
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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

integrated, is bombing imam bargahs terrorism, in your opinon?

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

I am one of them I mean the "moderates" how :

1 - I don't have beard
2 - I don't preach Islam
3 - I'm scared of following or standing by something which my gut feeling/Concious says is the right thing because I know if I do that I'll lose all these "liberties" of "socialism" because Islam isnt about compromises and personal prefernces, It's a definite and well defined way of life.

Beside all my fears and insecurities and my double standards, I want this thought process to continue and trying to be unbiased, perhaps that might lead me to the real englightened Path.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

down wih musharraf. I used to believe in his gov't but that f'kin guy has plunged us into a dark abyss. He is a failure on so many levels that he should be declared a failure among failures. He boasts about money surplus yet people are deprived of the basic human rights. Electricity problem, no clean water "mehengai" and now, oh wow, terrorism. I lost faith in his gov't the day a satalite missile landed in an NWFP area killing civilians and he procalimed that it was Pak army operation, protecting you-know-who and the very next week a suicide bomber blew himself up in an army cadet training facility.
Victims of the earthquake never got there promised reliefs and as usual the money some how disappeared among the elites and now the flood victims are sitting there homeless on their own awaiting some kind of help....which aint comming.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

Yes its terrorism.

Now let me try to evaluate why that happened...

Remember in current world every country and its leadership have their own vested interests which they want to protect at all costs and for that they use different tactics inside and outside their country's physical bounderies. We know Pakistan used "jehadis", and America used us to use "jehadis" indirectly. We also know that Iran is using hizbollah and uzbek war lords in afghanistan. It's like these powers are clinching their muscles and using tactics to get some hold for their own benefits and secruity ( as ace cards ). We can assume that around 60's and 70's Iran decided that it needs to set good foot hold in Pakistan and for that purpose it used the Relegious aspect.

Now we also know that there are fundamental conflicts between Sunnis and Shia Idealogy and beliefs, which is not a problem, as we know that both are muslims. I think 4 major factors lead to the conflict between shia and sunnis in Pakistan:

1 - Saudi fear of Iran setting good foothold in region and gaining power after Iraq failed and become a dominant regional power.

2 - Stupidity of Mullah's from both side that rooted the seed of doubt and enemity.

3 - Indian intervention, as Pakistan was fighting a proxy war and India also adopted this strategy by supporting MQM in karachi/sindh.

3a - If two people who are very volatile and have deeply rooted suspecion about each other can be easily brought to a level where they start fighting or go to peace stance/love given there is a 3rd party which interest is either to start them fightand kill each other or have them solve their issue peacefully. I believe Indian proxy war also made its contribution and some of the bombings were the work of RAW (Every thing is fair in love and war :) ).

Given the above factors I think once it started somehow it escalated rom both sides and we know Both Mosques and Imam barghas were bombed. I blame Mullahs and regional powers ( Iran and Saudia) and our people, because it was not the war of people shia/sunni it was proxy war of Saudia and Iran and the common people, who were FORCED to take sides and start hating each other, forgetting the fact that their fates are bounded together and they have to live together no matter what.

akhir is main mera kya kasoora hai!
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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

a few points about your post

a) Regardless of your explanation of motivations of these groups, the thesis of your argument that terrorism in Pakistan did not exist eight years ago is pretty much defeated. It did exist and thousands (according to amnesty, close to 3000) of people died. I can actually tell you of a suicide bombing in Karachi way before any of all this started.

b) The fighting was extremely lopsided. If you reference amnesty or hrw for that period you'll see an overwhelmingly larger number of bombings and deaths of shias compared to sunnies

c) Many of the groups associated with terrorism now are actually familiar figures to shias, having been associated with terrorism back then too. You obliquely mention Iran as being a winner in this situation, presumably you are aware of that too, that terrorists who previously bombed imambargahs are not being patronized anymore (if they previously were)

Who is your best online friend?
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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

I understand your dismay and the reasons, But also do understand that Musharraf is just a character, a piece on the chess board. He cannot pull this off on his own, he is well supported by Powers with interests and people with interests.

Remember in every era a ruler or group of rulers need a group which support their existence and cause. Bhutto used common poor/labour people, Zia used people inclined towards relegion for indian/afghan war, Zia also used MQM to counter sindhies, now from where musharraf can get support obviously he cannot tell poor to support him as he cannot bring prosperity in country for poor, the only logical choice would be to gather support of well off people. The only thing a well off person fears is the fear of losing "liberty", Although the well off people are less in number ( a minority) but they control the majority using MEDIA, education and financial/industrial complexes. It was easy for musharraf to bring more propserity for the minority with policies that were against poor, and that got him the support and also he he was successful in realizing them that he is the only savior of their riches, prosper future and liberty, and these "jehadis" and poor people are against them and should be eliminated.

I personally do not blame musharraf entirely, since he is following orders and also he is fighting for his survival. I blame myself and my nation for allowing this to happen to us, and our deeply vested corruption, selfishness and lack of ability to first decide what is right and wrong and then not following the right thing.

Every change starts from within, from inside, from atomic level and it spreads. If this change is not there within us, the situation will continue to grow worse.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

integrated sahab, i dont entirely agree or disagree with what you are saying here. i only wished to correct an error in the very first thing you said (that there was no terrorism in Pakistan eight years ago). That is factually incorrect as you agree.

sometimes though there isnt a conspiracy behind everything.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

I personally do not have account or knowledge of what happened in history I gave you my own personal assesment of situation. Having said that I do not support bombings of Imam barghas and mosques and accepting that people were killed and that is terrible loss, I would like to point out another idea.

Now don't get angry with me for pointing out this and lets talk without getting offended. Shias are a minority in Pakistan and in Muslim world ( some might argue). It is a nature of a minority group to become a majority, regardless of faith, relegion or ethencity. I stick to my point that Iran wanted to set foothold in Pakistan as it was a country with potential ( commercial interests on priority as well as spreading khamini's inqalaab in region ), and very much Iran has succeeded in this as much of Media, and top govt posts, and positions in army are with shia people.Now this is not a problem since we don't see masses of common people raiding each other homes and bomb them, but it was a problem for Mullah's as they were told that they are dealing with enemy. Since obviously Mullah's at that time were enjoying support of Govt in form of cash/arms for proxy war, they used it against the minority which was spreading its grip ( you see conflict of interests ), minority retaliated however due to less power suffered most of the loss.

Now me, you and all common people are responsible for believing this that this is our war, which it is not, it is not war of relegion, it is only war of interests of powers and people who represent those powers. If we can come above this and keep ourself aside from this mess, it would be the rational thing to do.

And eventually I will be judged by Allah and no one else, and same goes for everyone else.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

Perhaps stupidity/lack of knowledge/lack of thought is behind every thing then for not knowing why this is happeneing :). I believe there is a reason behind every thing happening and for every thing's existance.

I think I used terrorism word in its newest form as used by west to point out Muslims, but you are right killing/murdering/bombings the real terrorism have always existed through out history.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

can you tell me which of the top govt posts and positions in the army are with the shias? I'd like to evaluate your claim that they were disproportionately successful. on the one hand you say that shias acquired prominent places in govt and army, on the other you say the mullahs had support of the govt and started killing shias.

IMO the govt sat back and did not interfere between the bombings and counterbombings of sunnies and shias. after 9/11 a lot of the groups that used to bomb shias primarily and happened to be ideologically very close to al-qaeda got a new enemy to fight and switched to that war. because Amreeka was involved, Pakistan couldnt sit back and watch the show anymore, and had to act against them.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

I donot have the information you ask for with me to prove my claim (i'll try to gather this information though).

I'll get back to you in a short while.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

your opening remarks are factually incorrect, your later discussion is over simplification of events with a few assumptions and your subsequent claim about ahle tashi holding top positions is also incorrect.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

InshaAllah....you are being truthful and sincere to yourself and others and not everyone can do that, I think you're already on that path.
I bet you're not a Pakistani or at least you don't live in Pakistan.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

Wrong! Who was bombing the mosques/imambargahs? Killing with indiscriminate fire in public or mosque is not just 4-6 years old thing. I agree that govt funding as well as Saudi funding of people to send to Afghanistan/Kashmir but "U-Turn" in support of Taliban alongwith allowing refuge of foreign Taliban in FATA (as well as other parts of Pakistan) is what exaggerated the situation.

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

Hmmmm if someone with indepth knowledge about the history (or the very beginning) of religious motivated militarization of a part of society (like jehadis) in Pakistan, could shed some light on this

i mean when was the 1st time the socalled jehadis came into play or better said in which conflict they played a significant Role (i mean Jehadis from Pakistan) ?

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

If the foundations are weak, the structure will be weak.

Pakistans foundations were not strong right from the beginning - Jinhah died too early and the 'seculars' & the 'islamists' fought for supremacy.

The Islamists were helped by Ayub Khan who pushed the "muslim card", this helped to get aid from the Saudi government, but made the government more dependent on the Mullas - for the 'proxy' war in Afganistan and later in Indian Kashmir.

Soon only the 'Sunni' considered themselves as muslims and the rest as 'unbelievers'. The Military and even civilian governments stood by, it suited them to see this force fighting each other (Dive & Rule). Finally, a stage came that the writ of the government was challanged, based on Islamic interpretations.

The trouble is that the Military too is highly 'Islamicised' and to my mind there is a fear that one day the army may refuse to fire on fellow 'muslims'. Whats going to happen then.???

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

Well u reap what u sow

Pakistan or some elements in the set-up wanted this (jehadi's) which by now has turned into a fast spreading cancer

Education is a key issue (or better said the lack of it) and played a crucial role towards this position

If u use Mullah to convince PPL that ur Geo-Political aspirations are all part of a holy and just war well then be ready if those very Mullah turn against u if they don't get the piece of cake u got

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Re: What lead us to this situation in Pakistan.

A good article.
Pakistan has been supporting Jihadis since Russian Occupation of Afghanistan. Everything was OK, as long as both sides were in good terms. Things went wrong when our interest changed and the Jihad become Terrorism.
How can we convince someone (who is a true follower of Islam) that with the change of interest, the right becomes wrong and vice versa.
Our policy makers had very limited vision while formulating the national policy, why all these issues were not considered before.
Secondly we have to disentangle ourselves from Afghanistan. We created many problems for ourselves just by interfering into Afghanistan's affairs.