What kicks you out of Islam?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I didn’t want to sidetrack the main argument, but this was a post in response to “gay muslims”. Leaving aside the issue of gays, I just want to get somethings clarified about what will make someone a non-muslim. I am not necessarily sure if I agree to the argument that if someone keeps doing a sin, he/she will be kicked out of Islam. Similarly, I am not necessarily sure that if someone does not believe something to be a sin, whether doing it intentionally kicks them out of Islam. For example, I know muslims here who also eat non-zabiha meat. In their mind they have enough justification to suggest that all meats from ahle-kitaab is halaal. Regardless of whether it is a correct assumption, point is, if they keep on eating non-zabeeha, that does not really throw them out of Islam… does it?

In my mind, the severity of the sin is the critical factor. For example, shirk. If someone associates somone with Allah and commits shirk, that is unforgivable. That makes a person out of bounds of Islam. Also, if someone does not believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad :saw: that is a severe enough sin to cast that person out of Islam. The reason is that the shahadah, which brings a person into the fold of Islam comprise these two, so natural assumption is that if someone negates that, he is out.

Then we have the Imaan-e-Mufassil (is that the right term?).

We believe in Allah, the Angels, the Books, the Prophets, the Day of Judgement and that all Good and Bad comes from Allah - (Translation)

I would think if someone does not believe in any of those, then they are not a muslim. So essentially, if someone professes to be a muslim, recites the kalima what things makes him/her out of Islam? Can someone list down what makes a person out of bounds of Islam and the basis for each conclusion?

ps. Pls keep your answer short and to-the-point. No long copy-pastes. Also, pls leave the issue of finality of Prophethood outside this discussion, because that is a whole topic by itself. Thank you

Jazak Allah.

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We believe in Allah, the Angels,** the Books,** the Prophets, the Day of Judgement and that all Good and Bad comes from Allah

What does every book say about homosexuality? Believing in books doesn't simply mean believing in their existence, it is believing in the message they brought with them...Otherwise what good is just believing in books if you don't follow them?

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Lajawab.. you are going down a slippery slope there. Plus you are focussing on homosexuality alone. This question is more general in nature and that is why I did not put it in the "gay muslim" thread.

To answer your first point, Muslims believe all the Books revealed on the previous Prophets were from Allah, but we don't follow all those books, because #1 those books (the current available versions, atleast) may have been altered, and #2 we have Quran and we believe it is a complete set of commands for us. Reading Taurah and Injeel for informational purposes is fine, but for shariat matters we only follow whats in Islam, not in the books of previous Prophets.

In addition, how many muslims follow each and every command given in Islam? And if they don't follow any command, at any time, or consistently, are they cast out of Islam?

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I think you may be right that it would depend upon the type of sin you committ...

It wouldn't be easy to cast anyone out of "Islam" other than "shirk", deny Prophethood of Mohammed PBUH (or any other prophet for that matter), and others detailed in your (Faisal's) post above.

The question could be, if someone commits a sin and persists with it
i) knowing it is sin and enjoy it (no bad feeling about it)
ii) knowing it is sin and don't like doing it but don't have control over it
ii) and not consider it as 'sin' (forbidden)

is s/he going disbelieving in Quran? denying Allah's words? In Quran we find stories of other nations who suffered different punishments for various reasons. If an example of punishment of other nations is found in Quran for a "sin", that'd show how severe that "sin" is.

EDIT: I read what you responded to Lajawab, you don't necessarily want to discuss "gay Muslim" issue. so I took those comments out of this post.

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Slippery slope? I’ll try to put the brakes on…:smiley:

You say that no outside links and c&p not allowed…A tough call as I doubt there would be someone knowledgeable enough to answer your queries to satisfy your need…However, I will try as much as possible despite my ignorance and hope Allah :swt: forgives me for any discrepancies…And I doubt if this will be a short discussion, because we can keep scraping and digging forever, but the human heart is rarely satisfied with faith alone…

Someone once told me that during the time of the Prophet :saw:, the person who did not come for Fajr prayers, his Namaz-e-Janaza was not performed…I’ll ask my Imam about its verification…

Inama-Amalu-Binniat…“The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions” - Holy Prophet :saw: (Bukhari)

A sin done unintentionally is forgiveable…A sin done in ignorance is forgiveable, but a sin done intentionally is nothing more than rebellion against God…

Not praying 5 times a day is a sin, yet just see how many do it and how many don’t, intentionally…A Shirk is a rebellion against Allah :swt: and many scholars say, leaving praying is tantamount to Shirk as it is a direct violation of Allah :swt:'s commands and hence puts one putside the fold of Islam, i.e. a person who leaves his prayers intentionally is not a Muslim anymore…A serious issue, yet one which a majority of Muslims ignore…

It stems from the Hadith, that The Prophet :saw: also said, “Between a man and disbelief and polytheism is the abandoning of the prayer." (Muslim)

Some scholars say that the person who does not pray should be killed as he is no longer a Muslim unless he goes back to praying, “But if they repent and offer prayer perfectly and give zakat, then leave their way free” (al-Tauba 5).

“And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses His limits, He will cast him into the Fire, to abide therein, and he shall have a disgraceful torment.” [4:14]

From the above Ayah and the Holy Prophet :saw:'s Hadith mentioned above about intentions, isn’t it clear what is transgression and what is not?

If I am drinking or committing Zinna, without proper knowledge of what I am doing as a Muslim, I might be excused by Allah :swt: as my ignorance exceeded my knowledge about the matter, however, after I knew about it, I quit…My repentance was sincere and Allah :swt: never keeps unforgiven a man who repents…

However, after knowing about the limits set by Allah :swt:, I continue to pursue my course of actions, well Faisal, you yourself are smart enough to weigh those actions in the light of the above mentioned Ayah…

Undoubtedly, Allah :swt: knows best

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I agree there are sins, and there will be punishment for those sins. There are many things which are considered sin, in the light of quran, and many more in the light of sunnah/ahadith.

For example, lying. If you lie, thats a sin. You will be punished for it. If you lie consistently, what will happen. Will someone declate you be thrown out of Islam? I am not sure.

What about wearing gold. Sunnah suggests that a man should not wear gold. Do all muslims who wear gold rings be considered non-muslims?

Faraidh are more important than the rest of the commands.

Salah: This is perhaps one of the most important fardh upon a muslim. Quran says so. Sunnah proves it. If a person does not pray, or prays irregularly, or only prays Jummah, or somehow convinces himself that praying five times a day is not mandatory, will you cast him out of Islam? Will you say that even though he recites Kalima, prays jumma, but since he goes against the order of Allah, and is lazy and naughty that he does not pray five prayers a day at their appointed time... so he is no longer a muslim???

Sawm: What about those muslims who don't fast. Only fast irregularly. Or have convinced themselves that fasting 29-30 days of Ramadhan is not mandatory. Are they no longer a muslim?

Help me understand the logic.

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Do we as humans have enough knowledge to judge who is and who is not a Muslim?

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Lajawab,

I wrote the above response before reading yours.

I am very well aware that there are “some scholars” who will kick someone out of the fold of Islam and declare them murtid (even kill them if they can) if a muslim does not pray a salah on time. But tell me, what do you, Lajawab, say about this? Do you think that is correct?

Can you, without an ounce of doubt, say that you have not committed a sin, knowing fully well that it is a sin? Should you, therefore, be declared a murtid and killed?

Or is a person’s entry and exit from Islam essentially relies on some core components of Imaan. If a person’s actions (or some actions) go against the commands of Allah, then thats a sin, and Allah will balance the good deeds against the bad deeds on the day of Judgement and decide whether that person goes into Jannat-al-Firdous or in Jahannum.

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what's the source of 'Iman-e-Mufassil" and how do we ascertain it's a criteria for kicking someone out of the fold of Islam?... which brings us to the point raised by Sahar.. can we know the panel of esteemed judges who will be declaring people in and out of this exclusive 'circle of Islam'?

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Re: What kicks you out of Islam?

, pls leave the issue of finality of Prophethood outside this discussion, because that is a whole topic by itself. Thank you

This is unfair you being the mod, kept this topic out of the thread.
May I know. Why. This a good way for you to lead the
discussion. Why finality of Prophethood should be kept out.
This is unfair.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
what's the source of 'Iman-e-Mufassil" and how do we ascertain it's a criteria for kicking someone out of the fold of Islam?... which brings us to the point raised by Sahar.. can we know the panel of esteemed judges who will be declaring people in and out of this exclusive 'circle of Islam'?
[/QUOTE]

The source of imman e muffassil is the same which brought quran to us......interesting ...we believe in quran and then question the same source as far as hadiths are concerned ...

As far as kicking u out of islam is concerned.......well imaan e muffassil has given the criteria that not believing in anyof them / or mocking any of them kicks u out of islam.....

Namaz

Apart from imama abu hanifa rehmatllah.....all others imams agree that not praying salat in ** ISLAMIC STATE** is unforgivable ....and the person should be killed if he keeps on not praying(even after 3 days of house arrest and consultation by ulema)........as this amounts to not believing in salat......

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[quote]
The source of imman e muffassil is the same which brought quran to us......interesting ...we believe in quran and then question the same source as far as hadiths are concerned
[/quote]

are you telling me that "Imaan-e-Mufassil" is contained in some document that is considered coming direct from the Prophet by ALL Muslims??

and what part of "Imaan-e-Mufassil" states that not following it leads someone 'out of Islam"

and btw let's stick to statements that are universally accepted and not just go by each Imam's own verdict.. the Imam's are no longer alive to defend their opinions..

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

are you telling me that "Imaan-e-Mufassil" is contained in some document that is considered coming direct from the Prophet by ALL Muslims??

and what part of "Imaan-e-Mufassil" states that not following it leads someone 'out of Islam"

and btw let's stick to statements that are universally accepted and not just go by each Imam's own verdict.. the Imam's are no longer alive to defend their opinions..
[/QUOTE]

OK, let's put it this way...As a Muslim, what part of Iman-e-Mufassil will you reject?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *

Namaz

Apart from imama abu hanifa rehmatllah.....all others imams agree that not praying salat in ** ISLAMIC STATE** is unforgivable ....and the person should be killed if he keeps on not praying(even after 3 days of house arrest and consultation by ulema)........as this amounts to not believing in salat......
[/QUOTE]

And is there any precedent from the time of Prophet (pbuh) or Khualafa-e-rashedeen, that a person not offering namaz is punished, let alone killed ?

Not offering namaz does not fall under the category of either Had or ** Tazeer**. It is gunnah, for which Allah has all the authority to punish or forgive.

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Re: Re: What kicks you out of Islam?

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by rehman1: *
**This is unfair you being the mod, kept this topic out of the thread.
May I know. Why. This a good way for you to lead the
discussion. Why finality of Prophethood should be kept out.
This is unfair.
[/QUOTE]
*

errr....because we have over two dozen threads in this Forum as ample proof that this issue was discussed, rediscussed, re-rediscussed, then discussed again with no successful conclusion instead with name-calling and personal insults flying around freely. If he started this thread, i think he has pretty good authority to request that certain guidelines in the responses be followed.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *

OK, let's put it this way...As a Muslim, what part of Iman-e-Mufassil will you reject?
[/QUOTE]

you're thinking too black-and-white here.

non-acceptance doesn't mean automatically rejection..........this is the spectrum:

acceptance - neutral - rejection.

So if someone says he doesn't accept something, s/he very validly may be neutral towards it without rejecting it.

anyway, if we focus on iman-e-mufassil....it says to believe in the the Books

is the Hadith literature/books also included in these books??? I guess not. Cuz the included books are the ones coming directly from Allah and not Bukhari and friends.
You may bring forward the issue that it also says in the iman-e-mufassil: The Prophets
but in that case why only follow the man-made books about the Messenger Mohammad and not the evenly (un)valid man-made books about other Prohets like Jesus and Moses?

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no no u can follow those books:)… u are free to follow.. be a christian or a jew.. it’s ur choice:flower1:

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It would be better not to blindly follow any man-made book, but as Faisal put in neatly: Reading Taurah and Injeel [because they have been altered by insertion of the man-made part about the prophets which im talking about......so in essence that part resembles the 'hadith' of islam] for informational purposes is fine

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undercover112: it does not… u are full of ur own personal opinions and own translation of quran:flower1: …

PS: beleiving in book only refers to Revealed books, that part is agreed upon:) and beleiving in last book on the last prophet is also agreed upon..

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and if any dun believe in Rasoolulah:saw: as the final prophet, the person is out of islam anyway:) .. that is understood… so yes obvious things need not to be mentioned…