Lets not get bogged down by minutia here, thank you. :-)
If someone believes in Imaan-e-Mufassil. Fine.
If someone doesnot believe in that. Thats their choice.
If someone thinks s/he is neutral on that. Fine.
Move on...
Just give your perspective, as to what do you think kicks a person out of Islam?
As a few posters said already, they believe (correct me if I am wrong, and you don't believe it yourself) that if a muslim disobeys a direct order of Allah in the Quran (e.g. pray Salah) and they do it for a period of time (e.g. 3 days), they have not only sinned, but are deemed non-muslim (and can be killed).
How many of you subscribe to this thinking?
If you think otherwise, please state what you think and why.
I believe its pretty simple. Any of the "Gunahay Kabira" will kick you out of Islam. One may ask what are the "major sins" ...well here is a list (my opinion and research)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
Fell free to debate the logic behind these sins.
[/QUOTE]
No no.. you tell us. Casting someone out of Islam is a big deal, cz then the person is a murtid and should be killed.
So a murderer is automatically cast out of Islam? I mean, its a big sin, right... but to cast someone out of Islam means that person is a murtid. Whereas for murder, a person can still live under qisas, but being a murtid he has to be killed. So, isn't there a disconnect there? Will he live or will he not live?
Similarly, zina has prescribed punishments in Islam. So its a sin. A big sin. But to cast them out of Islam, means s/he is a murtid and HAS to be killed.
(Or may be I am taking a very narrow definition of murtid and its punishment. Correct me if I am wrong)
A person who commits suicide (successfully) is already dead, and shirk is clear (atleast to me) cz it negates our core Imaan.
I didn't want to sidetrack the main argument, but this was a post in response to "gay muslims". Leaving aside the issue of gays, I just want to get somethings clarified about what will make someone a non-muslim. I am not necessarily sure if I agree to the argument that if someone keeps doing a sin, he/she will be kicked out of Islam. Similarly, I am not necessarily sure that if someone does not believe something to be a sin, whether doing it intentionally kicks them out of Islam. For example, I know muslims here who also eat non-zabiha meat. In their mind they have enough justification to suggest that all meats from ahle-kitaab is halaal. Regardless of whether it is a correct assumption, point is, if they keep on eating non-zabeeha, that does not really throw them out of Islam.... does it?
Answer :
As long as you don't have access to halal food. Ahle Kitab. Bhi, have you
ever seen ke Ahl kitab ZHIBAA kese karte he.
Prophethood of Muhammad that is a severe enough sin to cast that person out of Islam. The reason is that the shahadah, which brings a person into the fold of Islam comprise these two, so natural assumption is that if someone negates that, he is out.
A person should be punished if punishment is prescribed in Quran for the sin in question... that should be the FIRST source of any "decree", if not prescribed in Quran then check Sunnah if its there. Otherwise, believe in your heart whatever you want to about that person and leave that to Allah swt to guide him in this world otherwise punish him in hereafter. I don't subscribe to "kill the sinner" as punishment if not described in Quran.
Faisal, lets look at some of the points you brought up. I will start with the easiest, suicide. When you commit suicide you die a non muslim. True you are alreday dead, but you have kicked yourself out of Islam. You will be judged by Allah accordingly.
Zina, does have a prescribed punishment but does it say after your punishment (if you survive) you are still a Muslim. No one knows, but Allah… I have read in Hadith books that it is considered “major sin” and sincere apology can redeem you. I can do some research and try to find out if in Prophet’s :saw: time some one survived the punishment …and how were they dealt with afterwards.
Murder, this is a tricky one. You have to look at the circumstances. Yes you can do qisas, which means that victims relatives have forgiven you…but were you forgiven by Allah? You paid the worldly price, what about the akhirat? You see you have to ask for forgivenes from the pople while you(or them) are on this world…whole concept of Haqooq-il-Ibad. Now you cannot ask for forgiveness from someone you have just killed. So, you have to pray and hope that on the day of judgement not only Allah but the victim forgives you.
Kaleem… yes all of this is true. And that, therefore, brings us back to the original question. Chucking someone out of the fold of Islam is much bigger than talking about someone committing some sins. We all know about sins and that they each have punishments, some in this world and some in the Day of Judgement.
However, other than #1shirk and #2doubting the prophethood of Muhammad :saw: what other sins rise to the level of kicking someone out of Islam?
For violation of haqooq-ul-ibaad, we have punishments prescribed... for violation of haqooq-ul-Allah, I think only Allah swt shall judge the punishment and whether s/he is out of Islam or not.
Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 8.800B, Narrated Ikrima from Ibn Abbas, r.a.
Allah's Apostle said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder." 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this," by clasping his hands again.