Re: What Islamic Ummah?
Bhai saab: Meetha Meetha hup hup, KaRwa kaRwa thoo.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
Problem with us muslims is that we dont want to change our self first then change the state system to islam. If people bring the core values of islam like tolerance , respect for other religions , honesty etc in our lives. Half of the work is already done. If such people are in majority , all rules an regulations of islam will automatically come in govt.
No doubt the non muslim estates are more islamic in many laws than most islamic countires.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
As for which islam is correct , u will be surpised to see not very big differnces in many firqah of islam about the core issues. It is the detailing and the people who r doing detailing making minor issues a very big ones to run their own shop.
Set of making rules not going to help. Rather it increasaes chances of mis use as is the case of blasphemy law in pakistan.
Our ulema stopped the core job of teaching good islam rather started making more and more divisions for their personal gains. Thats is y we are at this stage now.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
it is not about which islamic version is correct. there is a fundamental problem when you use a certain religion to be your guiding principle in governing a state. you are exhibiting a certain level of discrimination right there and then against your minorities who belong to some other religions. Imagibe USA becomes a christian state and starts dictating everyone based on the bible learnings and jesus teachings. muslim will be first one to cry for seculat secular
second, there is absolutely no way that particular religion can give you answers to all the problems and therefore you will need to give a lot of power to religious entities who can then interpret based on what they like. This takes the parliament out of the question where everyone is supposed to debate and build consensus. as a result, religious entities will become more and more powerful and they will not be answerable to anyone. we saw the same dynamics in Europe where church got more powerful than anyone else and finally got destroyed. we are seeing the same dynamics in Saudi Arabia and Iran now. this is what a religious state is…
pls stop living in a bubble.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
^ Democracy is based on decision made by majority . Once a majority USA can elect Trump , tehy can at any stage when the people of USA become intolerant as pakistanis can decide and announce USA a christian country. but for that purpose they need majority to be christian. At the moment most of ppl in usa are not religous at all.
I am also not in favor of forcing a religion on ppl’s life . What I mean to say that if majority of ppl become good muslim , Islam will automatically get implemented.
As for any religion not answering all problems , also secularism or any system not give answer to all problems. e.g. do u believe that same sex marriage is correct or suitable for human being. But secularism allows it. So it is not solving the problem rather it cannot solve any such problem .
Islam gives a process of IJMAA to solve problems democratically but not by counting ppl rather weighing the ppl.
I do also accept that under current state of muslim ummah ( mean muslim masses , me included ) it is useless to make a islamic republic. Rather secular system is better . Unless the real ulema work on " KIRDAAR SAZI " of muslim ummah. Before that all islamic rulings if made pakistani laws will make country more and more unislamic rather than making it islamic.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
Same sex marriage isn’t suitable for straight people. However, it’s perfectly suitable for homosexual individuals. A secular constitutions affords homosexuals the same rights as straight folk. That’s all there is to it. I don’t think a religious minister should be forced to administer such a marriage. Homosexual individuals can get a civil marriage which is the same thing as far as law goes.
I think you are misinformed about the influence of religion in the USA. According to this two year old article more than 50% of the people in the US say religion is very important in their lives. This might seem low compare to Pakistan’s 93%, however, you have to to take a look at the graph below to put things in perspective.
US is the exception when it comes to first world nations. Heck, Israel has a score lower than the US and it was created in the name of religion similar to Pakistan.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
I know it is good for homos to have same sex marriage but at the end is it good for humanity. They are having a relation is different that is to be decided on their moral values but is it good for society fabric ??? That is y i said in secular democracy , majority can make any decision whether it is same sex marriage or blasphemy law. But in the concept of sharia ppl of knowledge and good intentions decide on majority basis ( as knowledged ppl can have differnce in opinions ) Unfortunately we have QEHT- UR - RIJAAL , so not many ppl of good intention are available hence at the moment it is correctly said by other poster that at the moment we are in a bubble. Allah knows when we can have real muslims who can implement real islam.
As of the study , ppl saying religion being important is different thing and implementing it in daily life is another thing. I believe msot of these 50 % who said religion is important dont know what are rituals of christian religion except going to church on sunday.
Unfortunately we have opposite in pak , we have most of the ppl knowing the rituals of islam and following it but very less who follow the real islam that teaches us patience , respect to others , following state laws .. No corruption , etc. We made religion only for Namaz and killing ppl on the name of Mohammad. Even after that we do all type of haramkhori , corruption and what not.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
i often hear this argument and it creates some confusion, so let me clear it.
Neither a religion or secularism can solve all human problems. but when you use exclusively a certain religion to find answers to a problem, it will involve religious folks to find the solution based on religious scriptures and their interpretation of those scriptures. It is not fair to all the minorities who belong to other religions plus it will cause religious tyranny (look at Iran and Saudi Arabia and Europeurope of dark ages under church )
when you try to solve problems using secularism, you use parliament where everyone participates in debate and try to find the solution
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
It is good that we agree to disagree and till now no one labeled any one a kafir or some thing. It is good achievement.
Any system when it is not implemented in its true color will not be successful. How a JEW and hold to MOHAMMAD ( PBUH ) in strict islamic govt. and no one dare to har,m that jew.
In my opinion Correct islam is the only solution becaseu the right of non muslims are clearly defiened and well protected. If non muslims do not agree to that they have a right to leave the country. This is very much going to be applicable in secular countries when they ban hijaab and Cow meat , it is choice of muslims to live in that country or leave it.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
In my 2 cents, that is the bubble. There is no “correct islam”, there was never a “correct islam” and there will never be a “correct islam”. islam is just islam . A simple religion. It has given some basic guidelines (namaz, roza, zakat, hajj etc) to lead a life a like a Muslim. since muslims could never establish a true islamic state (all they had were brutal muslim kingdoms), they started to live in a bubble that muslim state is indeed the best solution but for that we need correct islam.
The biggest irony is that millions of muslims live in western secular countries and practice their Islamic life fully in those secular countries under full protection of the state but yet keep on promoting an Islamic state. is it fair?
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
I think that it is about attitude. Pakistan was quasi secular until bhutto but it didn’t stop bangladesh from leaving or the nationalization and quota system to destroy Pakistan.
We only have transplanted islam into ethnic nationalism but never actually got Pakistaniyat unlike bangladesh and india who have a strong national identity.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
I think you misunderstood what I am trying to say.
- Country works different than People. Country primary goal is to govern economics (and people to some degree). I don’t think this needs any more explanation and we are not in disagreement here?
- A system is a broader term to describe an idea and its working. For example, Police System is an idea that victim needs to be protected and people (Policemen) are hired to do that. More people believe in Police, better they will work. If people stop believing in them - then no one will use them and they will be less relevant. Its belief in the system that is giving them power.
Now on to your second Q:
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Where is this system that you talk of? Can you please point me where I can find details of it. I am honestly looking for some answers: Q1: How does banking work in God’s system (between country to country)?
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This system you speak of, was it ever implemented - in history of mankind?
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If there is a Q arises in this system, who will be able to decide what to do? (remember life is different shades of grey - not always clear Black & White)
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
absolutely correct. hypocrisy has become our hallmark.