if secularism refers to open consumption of alcohol/drugs, nudity, STDs etc ,where authorities come and intervene and might send parents to lockup too if they are admonishing their young sons and daughters (18 is a very vulnerable age) and stopping them from doing something immoral, then am mighty glad it isn't here.
Look at the way the degnerate morals of our country have become...secularism would just give them all the more *'khulla khaata' *to do everything that is yet still somehow respected due to the danda of some of the Islamic laws of our country!
At an individual level, we know the West (Europe and US etc) have transformed from what they were back in the Victorian times to what they are now. I might get a volley of comments at this saying that if a guy next door is sleeping with his gf or even having a sex rave for that matter, 'what goes of my father' ...it's not harming the society! Bu it infact is!
Would you be able to tell your teenage daughter excited for her prom night that she can't go to it because after party hours are nothing but booze and babes and no strings attached one night stands? If it wasn't for the secular society we wouldn't have come up with some horrific tales in Life1 about husbands who are into drugs or who hit their women or daughters who want to marry off to somebody out of religion or just extramarital antics for that matter?
Pakistan already has a multitude of problems it is going through, immorality and kharafaat are the last things it needs on its plate! Let them happen in secret! Let's not give them an open license too. At least the chances of my future son and daughter coming to tell me that he/she experimented with E or alcohol would be rarer!
So, you mean to say Muslims girls living in India have one-night stands, drink booze, have extra-marital affairs ??? Arre jao ...makhann khao...You suffer from Religious Constipation, have some Isabgol ki boosi..
So in another words - you dont have a problem with laws and their enforcement - You just dont want them to be dictated by a religion - That's it pretty much :)
Yes, because religious laws of Pakistan without any shame discriminate against women and minorities. What's there to be proud of?
So you are saying that police will stop you from drinking alcohol? Ever heard of tipping the police? Even some policemen are involved in selling alcohol in Pak.
Didn't I say that the problem is not with the Islamic laws but the degenerate morals of our nation? Tipping is *obviously *there but we know that because of this close family ties and laws against alcoholism and adultery, an average young teenager would think twice before doing something because they would fear the law! They know that police could get involved and parents get into this mess too. The later tipping off, bail, sifarish, rishwat all plays a part but still some damage of tarnished reputation keeps them at bay!
So, you mean to say Muslims girls living in India have one-night stands, drink booze, have extra-marital affairs ??? Arre jao ...makhann khao...You suffer from Religious Constipation, have some Isabgol ki boosi..
Who is talking about India here or even Indian Muslims ? And thank you for that ...am much happier with my religious constipation than other people's liberal incontinent diarrhea :p
No, no , I am asking about the secular nations of west that are the role model of secularism for all of us.
Secular countries have repeatedly shown to have much less crime. I really wonder why. Iran was seeing great success when it became a secular state, things went down hill the day Islam was reinstituted as the state religion.
A great example of a secular country would be Norway or even Sweden. There's a thing called age of consent, it is a law that's actually enforced. There are laws against rape and there are million types of rapes. A woman walking into a secular court will not be sent back to bring forth 4 witnesses. A secular government will not see the act of fornication as a crime but it will see who is involved in it.
This is the very reason a secular government will work in Pakistan. People will go about their business as usual just as they are doing now. Secularism will eliminate discrimination, corruption, ill-treatment of minorities from our system.
Secular or not secular, problems like alcoholism and open sex are not affected by the type of government a country has. Kids learn the stuff from parents and school. If your teaching of religion is so great, you should have enough trust in your children to not make those mistakes. A policeman is not going to come to your door and tell your daughter to go ahead and have sex and drink because we are now a secular country.
Secularism has only worked in those countries where people already know that they have to abide by the laws because they are laws. I have rarely seen a gora break the signal unless clearly drunk or just reckless even at around 3 at night. And in Pakistan traffic police na ho to almost everybody makes it a point to break it just for the sake of it. These things need to be corrected first.
Freedom comes with great responsibility and am afraid our people are not fit for that..and secularism has exactly got to offer that. Rules or no rules, secular state or no secular state.. some frustrated people will stare with their tongues hanging out at any girl wearing jeans or dressed out of the ordinary! People will still question other people's beliefs and still not respect minority rights because it's in their hearts and minds that need a thorough revolution first.
Secular countries have repeatedly shown to have much less crime..
That is because adultery or gambling is not considered a crime in secular nations. When you have your own definition of crimes, any country can prove a less or no crime rate.
Yes, because religious laws of Pakistan without any shame discriminate against women and minorities. What's there to be proud of?
Because these religious laws have been political in all aspects and have undergone various amendments to suit individual governments needs. In reality Islam doesn't have any space for disrespect for women or discriminate against minorities
No, no , I am asking about the secular nations of west that are the role model of secularism for all of us.
You yourself mentioned raising children the Islamic way. As I said earlier, a good Muslim won't drink Alcohol, doesn't matter if there are any laws or not.
^ So let me get this straight, you understand that the Pakistani religiois laws discriminate against women and minorities but they have nothing to do with Islam. Well ok then. WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO GET RID OFF SUCH A SYSTEM?
Then why do people have a probelm when we want to get rid off them?!
The problem is you want to get rid of them - where a sizable educated chunk of our population wants them implemented with required amendments as per the current advancement in technology .
Like in rape cases , technology should be used as first priority ..
I dont think the shariya I follow stops me doing that
Didn't I say that the problem is not with the Islamic laws but the degenerate morals of our nation? Tipping is *obviously *there but we know that because of this close family ties and laws against alcoholism and adultery, an average young teenager would think twice before doing something because they would fear the law!
God! Which Pakistan do you live in?? Most of my friends aren't virgins and I know lots of people who drink. Truth be told, I don't exactly have a pious gathering, but that just proves my point. People who want to do these things will do it with or without law. Those who don't want do won't.
Aray! When did I say a secular government will correct those problems? Those are law enforement issues. I am talking about our judicial courts. Law enforcement to baad ki baat hai.
The problem is you want to get rid of them - where a sizable educated chunk of our population wants them implemented with required amendments as per the current advancement in technology .
Like in rape cases , technology should be used as first priority ..
I dont think the shariya I follow stops me doing that
So wait you are ok with Pakistan's rape and Hudood Ordinance law. What about the law against Ahmadiya community? What about the blesphemy and apostasy laws? There's so many...and I am even all that familiar with Pakistani government/politics/law
How would you correct them if you are not Okay with them? the only option I see is to take them out entirely and implement a more logical/secular law.
Aray! When did I say a secular government will correct those problems? Those are law enforement issues. I am talking about our judicial courts. Law enforcement to baad ki baat hai.