God! Which Pakistan do you live in?? Most of my friends aren't virgins and I know lots of people who drink. Truth be told, I don't exactly have a pious gathering, but that just proves my point. People who want to do these things will do it with or without law. Those who don't want do won't.
A very tiny fraction amongst the educated crowd. And am sure even if they aren't virgins they wouldn't go blabbering it to everybody else because most people would still condemn it and also because we have some laws against adultery in general.
Mai bhi usi Pakistan mei rehti hon (rather thi) lol.
All I know is that if things aren't admitted to be wrong anymore or are left as such, then chances of immunity become a lot higher. Also the fact that majority is authority plays a part too. We do a lot of things that we know are wrong but only do so because har koi kerta hai. So IMO if religion is separated from the government and there are no laws against things that are clearly forbidden in Islam, they would become a norm soon and almost everybody might start doing it too. Conformity in our society is again another issue.
Why do people have to buy dowry/jahez or do a full fledged mehndi function (even though it isnt required at all) ? Just because everybody is else is doing it..log kya kahein ge.
At the same time if everybody begins losing their virginity and start being open about and making fun of those who care about this calling them over-Islamic or Maulvi sahab... it too would become normal gradually and no longer be condemned. I think we already have enough on our plate to tackle than cope up with this in addition too !
A very tiny fraction amongst the educated crowd. And am sure even if they aren't virgins they wouldn't go blabbering it to everybody else because most people would still condemn it and also because we have some laws against adultery in general.
Mai bhi usi Pakistan mei rehti hon (rather thi) lol.
All I know is that if things aren't admitted to be wrong anymore or are left as such, then chances of immunity become a lot higher. Also the fact that majority is authority plays a part too. We do a lot of things that we know are wrong but only do so because har koi kerta hai. So IMO if religion is separated from the government and there are no laws against things that are clearly forbidden in Islam, they would become a norm soon and almost everybody might start doing it too. Conformity in our society is again another issue.
Why do people have to buy dowry/jahez or do a full fledged mehndi function (even though it isnt required at all) ? Just because everybody is else is doing it..log kya kahein ge.
At the same time if everybody begins losing their virginity and start being open about and making fun of those who care about this calling them over-Islamic or Maulvi sahab... it too would become normal gradually and no longer be condemned. I think we already have enough on our plate to tackle than cope up with this in addition too !
So you are saying that people's Imans are so weak that they have to be kept in place through shariah laws? If that is the case, then people should stop pretending to be Muslims.
So wait you are ok with Pakistan's rape and Hudood Ordinance law. What about the law against Ahmadiya community? What about the blesphemy and apostasy laws? There's so many...and I am even all that familiar with Pakistani government/politics/law
How would you correct them if you are not Okay with them? the only option I see is to take them out entirely and implement a more logical/secular law.
I Presume , you have just heard about these laws and never bother'd exploring them in detail..
First , re-read my post , where I clearly stated ' with required amendments as per the current advancement in technology '
Bring in the amendments - Like allowing a rape victim to use the help of science and technology to prove her claim instead of just beating the bush about having four witnesses .
and if holocaust denial laws are enforced in secular countries , and we never see any of you self claimed secularist speaking against them .. what beef you got with Blasphemy laws ? Again you may need to over look them , as there is always a room for improvement you know .
A very tiny fraction amongst the educated crowd.** And am sure even if they aren't virgins they wouldn't go blabbering it to everybody else **because most people would still condemn it and also because we have some laws against adultery in general.
They do. Well, to friends at least.
[QUOTE]
Mai bhi usi Pakistan mei rehti hon (rather thi) lol.
All I know is that if things aren't admitted to be wrong anymore or are left as such, then chances of immunity become a lot higher. So IMO if religion is separated from the government and there are no laws against things that are clearly forbidden in Islam, they would become a norm soon and almost everybody might start doing it too.
[/QUOTE]
I repeat, anyone who wants to is already doing it and you can't stop them. Most people don't because they have a fear of Allah, not the police.
[QUOTE]
At the same time if everybody begins losing their virginity and start being open about and making fun of those who care about this calling them over-Islamic or Maulvi sahab... it too would become normal gradually and no longer be condemned. I think we already have enough on our plate to tackle than cope up with this in addition too !
I Presume , you have just heard about these laws and never bother'd exploring them in detail..
First , re-read my post , where I clearly stated ' with required amendments as per the current advancement in technology '
Bring in the amendments - Like allowing a rape victim to use the help of science and technology to prove her claim instead of just beating the bush about having four witnesses .
.
Do this and you have a secular law. Thank You for proving us right.
So you are saying that people's Imans are so weak that they have to be kept in place through shariah laws? If that is the case, then people should stop pretending to be Muslims.
true! at least that way those who do try to be true Muslims wouldn't be under constant ridicule or be tagged as jihadi, mullahs, crackpots etc if the rest stop pretending to be Muslims.
It's not about imaan only. It's human nature of conformity and doing the 'in' thing. That is why Islam encourages to openly differentiate b/w what is right and what is wrong. Letting go of things and saying each to their own is the weakest form of imaan (referring to the Sahih hadith of identifying what's wrong)
I repeat, anyone who wants to is already doing it and you can't stop them. Most people don't because they have a fear of Allah, not the police.
*Aap ko masla hota hai ke koi virgin hai ke nai? *
Yes because it is haraam and it would be alarming and if zina and pre-marital relationships are becoming that common that they are openly being discussed :)
separation of religion and govt means no religious laws. That means that there will be no law against alcoholism, adultery (that leads to open sex and teen pregnancies), gambling and other social diseases.
That is not true. You don't need a religion to be a moral person or know what kind of harm that can be done by things you have mentioned. In many western countries, including the US, there are laws against gambling, drinking, etc. However, you are confusing crime and sins. Not all sins are crimes.
separation of religion and govt means no religious laws. That means that there will be no law against alcoholism, adultery (that leads to open sex and teen pregnancies), gambling and other social diseases.
The best institution to teach this morality is the family/parents. State should have no business policing the the morality. What happens between two consenting adults in their bedrooms should not be state's concern. I am totally against moral policing by the state.
Sins should be left to God to punish in the hereafter. Crimes should be dealt by the state. If there is a case of rape it should be punished by the state severely. Similarly if someone is found drunk driving or caught creating a nuisance after drinking in public should be prosecuted by the state. To control the children to avoid drinking should be left to the families, and state should not assume the responsibility of parenting..
yes you may be able to procure alcohol in Saudi Arabia, but at least it would be against the law
So? What good would that do? I repeat, a good Muslim won't drink it even if its coming out of taps in your home.
We are going around in circles. First, please decide whether children can be made good Muslims if you raise them right or whether the state has to be involved. If you believe in the latter, then you are implying that no one raised in the West can be a good Muslim.
true! at least that way those who do try to be true Muslims wouldn't be under constant ridicule or be tagged as jihadi, mullahs, crackpots etc if the rest stop pretending to be Muslims.
It's not about imaan only. It's human nature of conformity and doing the 'in' thing. That is why Islam encourages to openly differentiate b/w what is right and what is wrong. Letting go of things and saying each to their own is the weakest form of imaan (referring to the Sahih hadith of identifying what's wrong)
A person who constantly needs confirmation and the support of ancient laws to practice Islam would be a very insecure Muslim indeed.
Yes because it is haraam and it would be alarming and if zina and pre-marital relationships are becoming that common that they are openly being discussed :)
Do you think dating and girlfriends and all that isn't discussed openly already among friends? Boy, you must lead a really sheltered life!
Ever heard of the Girl of Qatif? She probably had a better lifestyle than most people in Pak could dream of. She went to get back pics from a former bf and some men raped them both (the girl and her bf). And the judge, in addition to sentencing her rapists, sentenced her to lashes too, just for being with a na-mehram. Does this penetrate your thick head?
Ever heard of the Girl of Qatif? She probably had a better lifestyle than most people in Pak could dream of. She went to get back pics from a former bf and some men raped them both (the girl and her bf). And the judge, in addition to sentencing her rapists, sentenced her to lashes too, just for being with a na-mehram. Does this penetrate your thick head?
Yes and this relates to HDI how? Seriously you guys jump around more than an Amsterdam whore. Injustice is injustice. Just like violations of freedom of speech and the protection of minorities in secular governments.
Also regarding the Girl of Qatil can you provide any sources of the judgement?
Secularism, Shariayat, Hinduism or whatever you call it, if implemented and practiced by the worst people is the worst system ever... so for Pakistan it is more important to raise the civic sense rather debating which system can eliminate problems...
Secularism, Shariayat, Hinduism or whatever you call it, if implemented and practiced by the worst people is the worst system ever... so for Pakistan it is more important to raise the civic sense rather debating which system can eliminate problems...
Finally someone with a smart and realistic plan not based on delusions. That is by far the closest I have come to "liking" a post.
