What is your argument against secularism?

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

I go with AH on this topic:) He is right about Pakistan was founded by Quaid-e-Azam keeping in view secular setup. As OP said, relegion should be separated from government because of mixed population with different ethinic, religious and cultural backgrounds. At present mostly successful governments of the world are secular including our neighbour India.

Once upon a time an usurper tried to impose such Islamic laws which were backfired even during his life time. Unfortunately the hotch potch Islamic system he left only created miseries and deaths to Pakistanis which is still continuing in the name of Taliban and other jehadi setups.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

if secularism refers to open consumption of alcohol/drugs, nudity, STDs etc ,where authorities come and intervene and might send parents to lockup too if they are admonishing their young sons and daughters (18 is a very vulnerable age) and stopping them from doing something immoral, then am mighty glad it isn't here.

Look at the way the degnerate morals of our country have become...secularism would just give them all the more *'khulla khaata' *to do everything that is yet still somehow respected due to the danda of some of the Islamic laws of our country!

At an individual level, we know the West (Europe and US etc) have transformed from what they were back in the Victorian times to what they are now. I might get a volley of comments at this saying that if a guy next door is sleeping with his gf or even having a sex rave for that matter, 'what goes of my father' ...it's not harming the society! Bu it infact is!

Would you be able to tell your teenage daughter excited for her prom night that she can't go to it because after party hours are nothing but booze and babes and no strings attached one night stands? If it wasn't for the secular society we wouldn't have come up with some horrific tales in Life1 about husbands who are into drugs or who hit their women or daughters who want to marry off to somebody out of religion or just extramarital antics for that matter?

Pakistan already has a multitude of problems it is going through, immorality and kharafaat are the last things it needs on its plate! Let them happen in secret! Let's not give them an open license too. At least the chances of my future son and daughter coming to tell me that he/she experimented with E or alcohol would be rarer!

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

what if I dont want any govt institution to force laws on me or put her hands in my pie - what options do I have then ?

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Although I don't always agree with him, TLK at least makes sensible replies.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

What ZH did was just a political card to gain popularity which ZAB's government had lost quickly when our society had become very liberal! It wasn't anything 'pure'. The rest that followed was an American directed drama with ZH as their key puppet! And when he became useless. When the future Taliban were born and trained, (whom CNN referred to as *Mujahideen *of that time)the USSR crippled and whatever ulterior motive achieved, ZH conveniently died in a plane crash! :)

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

And that was the only sensible thing you could come up with? :) At times you really confuse me IS..you say you live in Pakistan but you can't read or write in Urdu. You say you have firm belief in Allah SWT and aakhirat but anything that I just said according to Islam just makes me part of a Mullah brigade or umm let's say utterly senseless :p

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

You are right totally. It's sad that the general level of imaan in Pakistan has stooped beyond lowest of the low. And for such an unruly crowd you need danda at all times. For them, the convenient belief that they are Muslims because they have so and so name and come from so and so family and all gunnah would be forgiven and they would eventually go into paradise as long as they have recited the first kalima and refrain from shirk. The rest (lies, deceit, by passing laws, doing all the bad stuff in hiding) is just a matter of child's play. They are the 'bakshi hui roohs' :p

And this is the reason why I strongly believe that secularism unless ideally implemented wouldn't work here at all!

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Then you will join the republicans… :chai:

The laws will apply to everyone. Having a secular government doesn’t mean you have to compromise your morals. You can still instill good values in your children.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

What danda? None here in Pakistan.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Just to clear it up for once and for all, I can, but have to really concentrate. I cant' read in Urdu in "flow", like in English.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Hamari police k danday bohat hain :p

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

So you are saying that police will stop you from drinking alcohol? Ever heard of tipping the police? Even some policemen are involved in selling alcohol in Pak.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

This is the very reason a secular government will work in Pakistan. People will go about their business as usual just as they are doing now. Secularism will eliminate discrimination, corruption, ill-treatment of minorities from our system.

Secular or not secular, problems like alcoholism and open sex are not affected by the type of government a country has. Kids learn the stuff from parents and school. If your teaching of religion is so great, you should have enough trust in your children to not make those mistakes. A policeman is not going to come to your door and tell your daughter to go ahead and have sex and drink because we are now a secular country.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Isnt he ( AH) the same fella , who also concluded ' The creation of Pakistan as the biggest Blunder in History ' :)

Jinnah sb , neither wanted to create a religiously fanatic state nor a pure secular one , where religion and Government dont sleep in the same bed .

He always wanted to have a land or Islamic state , where every body is allowed to live his/her life as per his/her moral codes/ ethics / religion .

The best way to judge whether the founder of Pakistan was a secular or not, is to have a careful look at some of his speeches and statements on various occasions and analyze them objectively. Speaking on the occasion of the Holy Prophet's birthday at the Karachi Bar Association on 25th January 1948, the Quaid said, "The Prophet of Islam (PBUH) was a great teacher. He was a great lawgiver. He was a great statesman and he was a great sovereign who ruled. The life of the Prophet (PBUH) was simple according to those times. He was successful in everything that he put his hand to from as a businessman to as a ruler. The Prophet (PBUH) was the greatest man that the world had ever seen. Thirteen hundred years ago he laid the foundations of democracy".

On another occasion addressing the Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers at Khaliqdina Hall Karachi on 11th October 1947 the Quaid said, "It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great lawgiver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles". In his concluding speech at the session of All-India Muslim League, Karachi on 26th December 1943 the Quaid said, "What is it that keeps the Muslims united as one man, and what is the bedrock and sheet-anchor of the community. It is Islam. It is the Great Book, Quran, that is the sheet-anchor of Muslim India. I am sure that as we go on there will be more and more of oneness, one God, one Book, one Prophet and one Nation".

In the message of Eid to the Muslims in September 1945 he said, "Every Mussalman knows that the injunctions of the Holy Quran are not confined to religious and moral duties. From the Atlantic to the Ganges, says Gibbon, the Holy Quran is acknowledged as the fundamental code, not only of theology, but of civil and criminal jurisprudence, and the laws which regulate the action and the property of mankind are governed by immutable sanctions of the will of God". Everyone, except those who are ignorant, knows the Holy Quran is the general code of the Muslims".

Jinnah has also talked about modern notion of the state, constitutionalism, civil and political rights and equal citizenship irrespective of religion or any other consideration. This means that he was neither for a religious or orthodox Islamic state nor for a secular system in the classical Marxist terms. His view was that Pakistan would be a modern, democratic state which derives its ethical formation from Islam.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Jinnah clearly wanted a secular state man. And BTW, please don't derail this thread, this has been discussed to death already.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

So in another words - you dont have a problem with laws and their enforcement - You just dont want them to be dictated by a religion - That’s it pretty much :slight_smile:

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

where is that LAW in place? could you please point that out,

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

There are many topics here , already been discussed to death and yet people open a thread about them every second day ! beauty of an Internet forum , innit :)

and please be little bit secular and dont poke your nose in my business :D

At least practice what you people preach and believe :D

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

There is a anti zina law in Pakistan.

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

I am talking in general, not in Pakistan. In Pakistan, there is no law, secular or religious. Jis kee lathee, oos kee bhains is the law of Pakistan