Re: What is your argument against secularism?
^ This still doesn't prove that American policy towards Isreal is determined by religion. Show me something offcial, by the US government.
LOL, no Pakistani official or President will say that minorities have been persecuted in Pakistan due to their religion, yet it happens. US will not acknowledge that its support is due to religious reasons but the groups lobbying for Israel all do so for secodn coming of Jesus.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Secularism has been tried since Pakistan's birth it is complete failure just look at situation today of pakistan for proof of secularism and its results! for people to call for more of the same is madness.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
You might want to start with looking up the word "secularism".
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I think secularism is best system b/c of the following reasons:
1) It separates religion and government.
separation of religion and govt means no religious laws. That means that there will be no law against alcoholism, adultery (that leads to open sex and teen pregnancies), gambling and other social diseases.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
separation of religion and govt means no religious laws. That means that there will be no law against alcoholism, adultery (that leads to open sex and teen pregnancies), gambling and other social diseases.
^ I would disagree with this idea. Separation of religion and government = secularism, but a government and the society it serves need not be amoral or without values or without laws that curb social ills like adultery or gambling.
Agreement on codification of common values in the form of laws come from a mutual social contract that citizens have with one another and morals and values are not exclusively tied to organized religion.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
That means that there will be no law against alcoholism, adultery (that leads to open sex and teen pregnancies), gambling and other social diseases.
So? Tax Alcohol and Gambling.
You really think someone in Pakistan can't drink or have sex if they want to? If you do, you must have your head in the sand.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
but the groups lobbying for Israel all do so for secodn coming of Jesus.
AS I said once in another thread, I can't argue with conspiracy theorists.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I expected a more reasonable answer from you, TLK. Dil totay totay kerditta… 
All secular countries have their own defined laws against alcoholism, sex, teen pregnancies, gambling, and other social issues. they are enforced too..
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
^ I would disagree with this idea. Separation of religion and government = secularism, but a government and the society it serves need not be amoral or without values or without laws that curb social ills like adultery or gambling.
Agreement on codification of common values in the form of laws come from a mutual social contract that citizens have with one another and morals and values are not exclusively tied to organized religion.
they may not seem tied to religion anymore but where did those values or morals originate from? How will you stop/control ab-norms like homosexuality, sexual liberation, porn industry, general vulgarity, nude clubs and all that khurafat just through preaching morals and values that would have no "obvious consequences" associated with them. At least, religion talks about the concept of after life and judgment day and hell and paradise, so you can stop someone from indulging in khurafat from the perspective of "Allah ka khof karo". A secular state of mind would turn into an aethiest state of mind in no time. What good the law is if it works against you if you are trying to stop your 18 years old daughter to sleep with her boyfriend.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
How will you stop/control ab-norms like homosexuality, sexual liberation, porn industry, general vulgarity, nude clubs and all that khurafat just through preaching morals and values that would have no "obvious consequences" associated with them. .
You think these things are under control? YOu really think you can stop your daughter from sleping wiht her BF if she wants to? You are, I'm afraid, utterly deluded my friend.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I must admit that I am a very madran mullah. Mullah being the operative word here.
lets start with USA. please tell me the general laws that stop people from any of the above.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
You think these things are under control? YOu really think you can stop your daughter from sleping wiht her BF if she wants to? You are, I'm afraid, utterly deluded my friend.
Yes you can. If you raise them well in a religious (any religion) environment, you can instill a strong resistance against such khurafat in them.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
they may not seem tied to religion anymore but where did those values or morals originate from? How will you stop/control ab-norms like homosexuality, sexual liberation, porn industry, general vulgarity, nude clubs and all that khurafat just through preaching morals and values that would have **no "obvious consequences" associated with them. **At least, religion talks about the concept of after life and judgment day and hell and paradise, so you can stop someone from indulging in khurafat from the perspective of "Allah ka khof karo". A secular state of mind would turn into an aethiest state of mind in no time. What good the law is if it works against you if you are trying to stop your 18 years old daughter to sleep with her boyfriend.
Even if one doesn't see any serious consequences for their actions, as a secular government, you could enforce more powerful laws/fines/punishment. Basically you are proving me right that all moral people stick to morality out of fear. That's pretty lame.
Do you have no faith in your religion? (pun intended)
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Yes you can. If you raise them well in a religious (any religion) environment, you can instill a strong resistance against such khurafat in them.
I said:
[QUOTE]
f she wants to
[/QUOTE]
Why would she *not *want to? If she has been raised as a good Muslim, as you yourself pointed out. What does that have to do with secularism. Or can't people in the UK or US be good Muslims?
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I must admit that I am a very madran mullah. Mullah being the operative word here.
lets start with USA. please tell me the general laws that stop people from any of the above.
USA is not exactly a good model for a secular country. :p
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
they may not seem tied to religion anymore but where did those values or morals originate from? How will you stop/control ab-norms like homosexuality, sexual liberation, porn industry, general vulgarity, nude clubs and all that khurafat just through preaching morals and values that would have no "obvious consequences" associated with them. At least, religion talks about the concept of after life and judgment day and hell and paradise, so you can stop someone from indulging in khurafat from the perspective of "Allah ka khof karo". A secular state of mind would turn into an aethiest state of mind in no time. What good the law is if it works against you if you are trying to stop your 18 years old daughter to sleep with her boyfriend.
Your comment assumes that someone who doesn't believe in God cannot be moral because they are not accountable for their actions - I know that the atheists of the world would disagree with you. There is a concept of man in nature, unfettered by the concept of God or civil society and civil obedience. Some political theorists/philosophers believe that man is inherently good, while others believe he is bad (cruel and brutish). It all depends on which school of thought you subscribe to, but I believe that man is capable of goodness for the sake of goodness and not merely out of fear of God. The very concept of what separates man from animal is that we (humans) have control over our nafs which makes me believe that man is inherently rational and capable of knowing the difference between and acting on right versus wrong.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I must admit that I am a very madran mullah. Mullah being the operative word here.
lets start with USA. please tell me the general laws that stop people from any of the above.
Why do you want to stop people from all this? Anyone who wants to drink alcohol in Pak can get it. These who don't drink it here won't drink in the states either.
I'm totally secular, but I haven't ever drank a drop of alcohol and may Allah help me and keep it that way!
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Basically you are proving me right that all moral people stick to morality out of fear
And I am not ashamed to admit that at all. All moral values work against the basic animalistic instincts of human beings. When everything fails, only a fear would keep them on a straight path.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Why do you want to stop people from all this? Anyone who wants to drink alcohol in Pak can get it. These who don't drink it here won't drink in the states either.
I'm totally secular, but I haven't ever drank a drop of alcohol and may Allah help me and keep it that way!
I am sorry to miss your replies IceSoul. give me a minute and I will come back and reply
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
^given their Iman is strong enough. What would stop them from committing a crime if their Iman is weak? LAW ENFORCEMENT!