Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Music is haram according to a majority of Sunni scholars. :)
Any crystal clear verse about it in the Quran as there is about alcohol, zina etc?
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Who is arguing against it. Secular is defined as absence of religion from state affairs while giving complete freedom to individuals to follow their religious orientation. Secular system is not against using collective wisdom to safeguard the interest of the people. It is just against making rules based on religious doctrines of a particular religious group. Secular system ensures essential personal liberties, but not to an extent when society at large suffers from these liberties. I gave you the examples of laws against drunk driving and smoking at public places in secular states..
That is exactly whats wrong with all of this. Secular government does not equal Western Democracy models. Secularism is simply absence of religion. Secular government does not mean:
- You can or can not drink alcohol.
- It does not mean that collective wisdom is used.
- It does not mean drugs or legal or illegal.
- It does not mean smoking is illegal or not.
Those are all examples of western laws. Not secular laws.
It simply means religion is not a base for making decisions in the matters of state. It does not ensure personal liberties at all. If that was the case the actions of France and Switzerland would not be allowed.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I don't disagree with the banning of wine but just a correction....even muslim scholars won't allow praying in a street coz it might cause disturbance for other people, after all what's the point of praying to God when you're annoying His creation?
Hareem when was the last time you were in a Muslim country? Praying on streets is common in every Muslim country. If the mosque is full you pray outside it. You do it any time of the day.
Also the earth belongs to Allah I can pray anywhere I want as long as I am praying towards Mecca.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Any crystal clear verse about it in the Quran as there is about alcohol, zina etc?
No, but so goes the case regarding porn and age of marriage.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
No, but so goes the case regarding porn and age of marriage.
No but in the case of porn you do have quotes on modesty, premarital sex and the rest that all apply to porn. And age of marriage is a cultural aspect not a religious aspect. There is no set age of marriage in Islam.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Hareem when was the last time you were in a Muslim country? Praying on streets is common in every Muslim country. If the mosque is full you pray outside it. You do it any time of the day.
Also the earth belongs to Allah I can pray anywhere I want as long as I am praying towards Mecca.
Yes that may be the case in muslim countries but according to majority of scholars it's makrooh to pray in a street especially in a mixed country where half the people would be busy doing their usual chores.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Music is haram according to a majority of Sunni scholars. :)
*majority *of Sunni scholars yes..not all. But there is no obvious clear cut or proof hukm in Quran stating so like zina, alcohol, gambling, riba etc. Zina, alcohol, gambling, riba these are the big sins that have an equal potential to harm the society.
Am not *promoting *music as something halal because I know majority say it is haram and some of them say it to be permissible. So anything that is disputed amongst the scholars itself or doesn't have clear cut hukm regarding it either, I can't ask it to be implemented for that matter as a law.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Right. So a scholar on Islam will say you can pray in your home, your office, your shop. You can pray in an open garden, in Hyde park in the UK - you can pray anywhere except on the street. Mashallah must be a very learned scholar.
Links to the "majority" who say this.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
No, but so goes the case regarding porn and age of marriage.
porn itself is flatly against the ruling of guarding one's modesty, lowering one's gaze and guarding their private parts as ordered in the Quran. Anyone who indulges in zina or alcohol himself/herself or promotes it (porn is a mere promotion of zina) by being part of the trade, business related to either of these has been shunned according to the Sunnah.
And even according to Sunnah and the Holy Quran there is no set age of marriage.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
There are already laws against mentioned sins/crimes in Pakistan so what’s the debate here? I don’t understand. 
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
porn itself is flatly against the ruling of guarding one's modesty, lowering one's gaze and guarding their private parts as ordered in the Quran. Anyone who indulges in zina or alcohol himself/herself or promotes it (porn is a mere promotion of zina) by being part of the trade, business related to either of these has been shunned according to the Sunnah.
And even according to Sunnah and the Holy Quran there is no set age of marriage.
There is no prescribed punishment against porn as compare to zina in Quran, like there's no punishment for watching movies and listening to music but the four major sunni fuqha consider it haram, right?
So people can marry 8 year old girls coz there is no law against it? Happens a lot in Saudi and Yemen.
Majority of muslims in Pakistan are Hanafi so it's more likely that the law would be hanafi so no more music, no more starplus dramas, no more bollywood.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Wait now movies and music are haraam? Someone tell the Peace TV channel. They are all gonna burn in hell for being on TV even though they discuss Islam and our faith.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Well yeah, no more Spartacus for you. 
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Anyway, I don't wanna debate any further, it's just I don't think imposing shariah is that easy when there are so many different versions of shariah in our society......
Iran and Saudi are bad example, if anything, I'd like Pakistan to be like Malaysia.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Pfft the actor died. There goes that show. It actually took me a minute to realize how you knew I watched Spartacus. Then I remembered the thread. Good memory.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Pfft the actor died. There goes that show. It actually took me a minute to realize how you knew I watched Spartacus. Then I remembered the thread. Good memory.
Have you watched The Game of Thrones? You should if you haven't.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Yup. Big fan of Sean Bean esp after Lord of the Rings. I read the first two books back in the 1990s. The books are odd, very weirdly written. The show is decent. If you are looking for stuff similar to Game of Thrones but far lighter look up Legend of the Seeker. Its been canceled but its a decent TV show. The books are much much much better.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Such pretty words yet no substance and logic. *I would like to see where the UN intervened on Saudi slave trade markets. Got any proof to back that up? * Also it seems you consider yourself a student of history yet fail to listen to the wisdom of Jean Luc Picard. "History is written by the victor". Maybe that is why you read racism and female abuse was natural as it was a good portion of Judeo-christian history from the 1500s to the 1800s. I mean colonialism after all was based on racism.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) was adopted by the UN in 1948. It was this international bill of rights that forced all Arab countries to abolish slavery. Don't believe me? Go ahead and google it. It's funny that they were the last ones still holding on to slavery as this was allowed by their religion. I can't imagine why the same wouldn't happen with secularism.
It's no surprise that the UDHR is greatly critisized by the muslim world. I have nothing more to say. Like I said history repeats itself. I can't wait for the day Pakistan will adopt a secular government. Maybe then I will have a very good reason to go there.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
You do realize most Arab countries did not exist in 1948. Also Saudi Arabia did not sign or ratify the Declaration at the UN. It abstained during the vote.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Anyway, I don't wanna debate any further, it's just I don't think imposing shariah is that easy when there are so many different versions of shariah in our society......
I'm not asking for shariah law to be imposed on anyone, I don't think anyone else is either. But we're not okay with imposing secularism either. As I said many times before, there needs to be a balance between the two. And you're saying the same thing, you do not want Pakistan to turn into Saudi and neither do I but I don't want it turning into Los Angeles either where gambling, alcohol, zina is the norm and perfectly acceptable and legal.