Re: What is your argument against secularism?
No absolutely not ... there is no evidence that schools in Arabic and Islam are dangerous ...
No I did not say that. However, many Madrassas in Pakistan have links with and are sympathetic to banned Jihadi outfits.
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any sensible government will outlaw alcohol yes or no? If no why? Perhaps it is not a sensible government then ??? ..
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No. Alcohol is BIG BUSINESS.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
No I did not say that. However, many Madrassas in Pakistan have with and are sympathetic to banned Jihadi outfits.
No. Alcohol is BIG BUSINESS.
So is slavery and drug trafficking.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Tax heroin, charas and prostitution then. Nothing can make up for loss of life.
Yes, do. And Pakistan will have a heck of a lot more revenue.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
So is slavery and drug trafficking.
Only a person like you would compare slavery to alcohol. About drug trafficking, yes, it is big business. And some countries like Mexico might even move towards legalization.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
not necessarily an Islamic country.
Now who's being naive? They just have a stricter interpretation of Islamic laws. Many people may not agree with the interpretation, but they are Islamic laws all the same.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
what kind of bakwas argument is that why you even commenting on pakistan issue or even islamic issues actually why you on pak forums you hypocrite?
Typical abusive Mullah. I wonder if you are so tough IRL...
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
They are very selective laws against gambling, drinking, etc in USA. And yes, because not all sins are crimes, not all sins at social level can be stopped without a law and only religious laws can take care of that.
TLK.. secularism does not mean that society should not use collective wisdom. i have seen one of the post by psyah that alcohol being harmful to the society should be banned. Okay.. let the society/people debate on that.. and if they think it is bad for the society and people will not be able to drink responsibly without harming the society.. ban it. But don't ban it for religious reasons, just because our religion says it should be banned therefore it should be banned and the violators should be punished according to the religiously prescribed punishments.
Islamist here are portraying that banning alcohol is Islamic system.. and allowing the use of alcohol is secular system. They have missed the whole point.. secular system does not mean that there are no rules and laws. In fact in reality in societies who use secular system, rules are debated without prejudices and implemented more strictly.
Secular system just mean to keep religion out of state governance. Collected wisdom to devise the rules and laws in a society should not be motivated by religious orientations of a particular religious community. Let the people decide if they want to ban tobacco, alcohol etc,or they want to make rules for responsible consumption without indulging in to the debate of what a particular religion says about it. Let the people use collective wisdom to decide what is the minimum morality requirement of an individual which does not affect the society. But these decisions should not be religiously motivated..
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Only a person like you would compare slavery to alcohol. About drug trafficking, yes, it is big business. And some countries like Mexico might even move towards legalization.
Ha! Hey remember slavery was legal. Just like Alcohol. Drugs is big business in Amsterdam as well. Lets let NAMBLA run around as well and make that legal too!
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Ha! Hey remember slavery was legal. Just like Alcohol. Drugs is big business in Amsterdam as well. Lets let NAMBLA run around as well and make that legal too!
So slavery is same as Alcohol? You are very wise, sir.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I am. Shame you can't even get whats written in simple English.
Both are immoral activities which are defined as legal or illegal dependent on different societies.
That is why drugs are illegal in the US but legal in Amsterdam even though both are secular countries.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Both are immoral activities which are defined as legal or illegal dependent on different societies. .
Just answer the goddamn question man, Is Slavery and Alcohol the same? Or are they equally immoral?
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
What Pakistan needs to do is follow the model of secularism we have in the United States. People are free to go to their churches, synagogues, mosques-- or not if they want. But there is a separation of state and church; the US government does not favor one religion over another, nor passes laws that curb freedom of religion or expression of minority groups.
The first amendment to the U.S. constitution unequivocally spells out:
*"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
*
Pakistan could have taken a completely different positive trajectory from the unfortunate one it has if only Pakistanis had enshrined in their constitution the values we cherish and protect in the US.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I am. Shame you can't even get whats written in simple English.
Both are immoral activities which are defined as legal or illegal dependent on different societies.
That is why drugs are illegal in the US but legal in Amsterdam even though both are secular countries.
Religious societies have endorsed slavery while banning alcohol based on divine religious laws.
Why do we use our collective wisdom today to ban slavery in spite of of it's sanction by religion.
When we can ban slavery using our collective wisdom and by keeping religious rules aside.. why can't we use collective wisdom in all the other situations also, and see what rules should be implemented keeping aside the religious laws..
If slavery is immoral why did the religious societies sanction it.. ??
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Yes Europe did endorse slavery so did the church. It was based on religious edicts. At the same time they banned alcohol. They also banned taking interest.
However note how none of this is related to being secular or not. This is all government choice that has nothing to do with religion as you pointed out.
Icesoul I never made the contention they are the same. You did. Why should I comment on something I never said.
The problem with all this secularism talk is that it is not about secularism. Prohibition in the US had nothing to do with religion yet they banned alcohol. Or do you say it was a religious issue?
Drugs in Amsterdam have nothing to do with being secular or not. They have everything to do with what the Dutch people find acceptable.
At the end of the day you guys don't want secularism. You want a Western standard of living as that is what you find acceptable.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
At the end of the day you guys don't want secularism. You want a Western standard of living as that is what you find acceptable.
It is not the state's job to force people to live "Western Style" or "Eastern Style" or Muslim/Hindu/Christian/whatever style.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Exactly then why are you all stating that this form of government is what Pakistan should have? Its hypocritical.
You don't want Secularism as it is defined. What you want is a European style of secularism where the things you do in the US and Europe are allowed in Pakistan.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Icesoul I never made the contention they are the same. You did. Why should I comment on something I never said.
I said Alcohol is big business. You said:
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So is slavery and drug trafficking.
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Clearly putting both on the same footing. This is why I asked you if you thought slavery and alcohol were comparable? Because they are not and it was a pretty stupid example.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Exactly then why are you all stating that this form of government is what Pakistan should have? Its hypocritical.
You don't want Secularism as it is defined. What you want is a European style of secularism where the things you do in the US and Europe are allowed in Pakistan.
Please re-read:
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It is not the state's job to force people to live "Western Style" or "Eastern Style" or Muslim/Hindu/Christian/whatever style.
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A secular government won't force people to drink alcohol or commit Zina, but it will allow it. Personal freedoms man. As long as I'm not harming other people, I should be able to do as I want.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
No. I did not say that. You assumed i put them on equal footing. However they are all big business. Slavery, alcohol and the drug trade tend to big business. Only difference is one is legal the other two are illegal. But they are all big business.
No tell me why a secular government will allow people to drink? What aspect of secularism allows that?
Secularism has nothing to do with personal freedoms. Secularism is defined as the separation of church and state. That is all
Edit: The definition:
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Secularism has nothing to do with personal freedoms. Secularism is defined as the separation of church and state. That is all
But religion does. Because religion teaches us to live a certain way. By removing religion from the laws of the land, you enhance personal freedoms.
For the sake of argument, lets just say that I would be OK with alcohol being banned for health reasons but not because of Islam or Christianity.