Re: What is your argument against secularism?
But there are partly Islamic states. Thats better than being totally un islamic. Please note that I'm saying in the sense that you guys take it, i.e haram things like booze, sex etc being banned. The justice systems of Europe and the US make them by far more Islamic than Pak. :)
You know that's a silly question.
Every country in the world is partly Islamic ... none are totally Islamic
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I am coming really late to this discussion, so am not sure if this argument has been made already, but here is my problem with secularism.
Secularism is essentially self-contradictory.
It claims to exclude religion from the state and therefore claims that state is neutral to all religions.
But, when religion is excluded from the state, the vaccum is filled by a "religion" called secular humanism.
This "religion" is privileged among all others and the State becomes, essentially, a church of secular humanism.
This is inevitable because there is really no such thing as an action that is value-neutral. In order to do anything at all the State must invoke some set of values. This set of values must come from some underlying world-view. That world-view, then, gets privileged over all others. Hence, the contradiction.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
t but it does not need to legalise alcohol to achieve a balance in the society. .
Why does it need to make alcohol illegal to maintain a balance?
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I am coming really late to this discussion, so am not sure if this argument has been made already, but here is my problem with secularism.
Secularism is essentially self-contradictory. It claims to exclude religion from the state and therefore claims that state is neutral to all religions.
But, when religion is excluded from the state, the vaccum is filled by a "religion" called secular humanism. This "religion" is privileged among all others and the State becomes, essentially, a church of secular humanism.
This is inevitable because there is really no such thing as an action that is value-neutral. In order to do anything at all the State must invoke some set of values. This set of values must come from some underlying world-view. That world-view, then, gets privileged over all others. Hence, the contradiction.
Peace krash
Yeah I sort of made that point earlier ... however I feel that even though the supporters of secularism are themselves humanists ... when a state deposes the state religion in its affairs the next strongest ideology sets in ... And in the context of Pakistan ... even though we think that humanism will replace the pseudo-Islamic state, it won't because there are not enough humanists in Pakistan to make that move ... What will happen however in the name of secularism ... Supremacy (Nationalism) will set in instead ... because other than religion this is the other wind in the sails of the common Pakistani ...
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Why does it need to make alcohol illegal to maintain a balance?
I would think any sensible government would outlaw alcohol due to it being the biggest accidental killer in the world ...
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I would think any sensible government would outlaw alcohol due to it being the biggest accidental killer in the world ...
How about outlawing Madrassas then? The not so accidental, but big killers nonetheless.
Tax Alcohol sales. More than makes up for any loss due to accidents.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Why does it need to make alcohol illegal to maintain a balance?
Because it is against the religion which forms the basis of the society's moral values?!
Why must you either be completely obsessed with religion to the point that you do not even make a career for yourself because you can't work with na-mehrams or be completely exempt from religion to the point that you legalise all haram things?
Again, there needs to be a balance. Harmony between state laws and religious rules is my idea of a balanced modern moderate society.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
How about outlawing Madrassas then? The not so accidental, but big killers nonetheless.
Tax Alcohol sales. More than makes up for any loss due to accidents.
That is expected of a secular government anyways :D
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
That is expected of a secular government anyways :D
Unfortunately (yes, unfortunately), a secular government doesn't do that. Like the US allows mosques that seek to undermine their own culture.
Predictably, Saudi Arabia doesn't allow any centers of learning of other religions.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Because it is against the religion which forms the basis of the society's moral values?!
Why must you either be completely obsessed with religion to the point that you do not even make a career for yourself because you can't work with na-mehrams or be completely exempt from religion to the point that you legalise all haram things?
Again, there needs to be a balance. Harmony between state laws and religious rules is my idea of a balanced modern moderate society.
I ask again, how is banning zina and alcohol necessary for maintaining a balance? "Because its not allowed in Islam" is not a valid answer. Countries where alcohol is legal are doing just fine.
Also, you still haven't answered my previous questions. If you can't, at least say so.
It's late in Pak, so good night and Allah Hafiz :) (y'all)
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
How about outlawing Madrassas then? The not so accidental, but big killers nonetheless.
Tax Alcohol sales. More than makes up for any loss due to accidents.
No absolutely not ... there is no evidence that schools in Arabic and Islam are dangerous ... that is not even logical ... Just answer my question ... any sensible government will outlaw alcohol yes or no? If no why? Perhaps it is not a sensible government then ??? ...
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Unfortunately (yes, unfortunately), a secular government doesn't do that. Like the US allows mosques that seek to undermine their own culture.
Predictably, Saudi Arabia doesn't allow any centers of learning of other religions.
For secular person your liberals views seem to be interfering ... which is more sensible towards its own cause?
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I ask again, how is banning zina and alcohol necessary for maintaining a balance? "Because its not allowed in Islam" is not a valid answer.** Countries where alcohol is legal are doing just fine**.
Also, you still haven't answered my previous questions. If you can't, at least say so.
It's late in Pak, so good night and Allah Hafiz :) (y'all)
But when you are swaying to the music of newspeak you will say they are fine ...
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
How about outlawing Madrassas then? The not so accidental, but big killers nonetheless.
Tax Alcohol sales. More than makes up for any loss due to accidents.
Tax heroin, charas and prostitution then. Nothing can make up for loss of life.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
If you are so not okay with Haram things being legal, why do you live in Ireland?
And you can't have it both ways. Tose rules (most of them) are part of Islam. You wither take it or leave it, no middle way.
what kind of bakwas argument is that why you even commenting on pakistan issue or even islamic issues actually why you on pak forums you hypocrite?
stop commenting on pak forum no middle way take your own advice.
the world belongs to allah(swt) it is not haram for muslim like barbie to live anywhere in world, and have view on islam and islamic laws.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Peace krash
Yeah I sort of made that point earlier ... however I feel that even though the supporters of secularism are themselves humanists ... when a state deposes the state religion in its affairs the next strongest ideology sets in ... And in the context of Pakistan ... even though we think that humanism will replace the pseudo-Islamic state, it won't because there are not enough humanists in Pakistan to make that move ... What will happen however in the name of secularism ... Supremacy (Nationalism) will set in instead ... because other than religion this is the other wind in the sails of the common Pakistani ...
I absolutely agree regarding Nationalism.
I think a real solution would be to limit the scope of the State.
The domain of the State should be restricted to that which is common to all religions and ideologies - i.e the defense of life and property of citizens and enforcement of contracts.
Anything beyond that should be left to private citizens and private organizations.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
Unfortunately (yes, unfortunately), a secular government doesn't do that. Like the US allows mosques that seek to undermine their own culture.
Predictably, Saudi Arabia doesn't allow any centers of learning of other religions.
US allowing mosques is greatly different from a country allowing "madrassah", now don't pretend to be naive to not differentiate a mosque from a madrassah. Also, Saudi Arabia is a "kingdom", not necessarily an Islamic country.
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
If you are going to answer you own questions ... why ask? The answer is simple If a Muslim leaves Islam whilst living in an Islamic state then don't declare that fact and don't call others to it ... because they would be seen as sowing discord and would subject to laws of high treason. But if a person stopped believing in Islam then what can anybody do about that?
If anything it demonstrates the lack in the ability of the society to show people the beauty of Islam and we already know that there will be many people who don't follow Islam - that is fine it is their choice . t
As for Pakistan you have a point ... but is that a true Islamic state? I don't think so ... Anyway if you did go to Pakistan you don't have to go around shouting "I'm an atheist - come and get me"
Well, why should one live in fear of being "exposed"? Not a very healthy environment to live in. As a matter of fact, this is what makes Pakistan and all those so called psuedo-islamic states very hostile for people who stop believing, gays, other minorities, and women. Why should anyone have to feel as if they have committed a crime?
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
What will happen however in the name of secularism ... Supremacy (Nationalism) will set in instead ... because other than religion this is the other wind in the sails of the common Pakistani ...
So, what is wrong with nationalism b/c Islamism has failed as an ideology & uniting factor in the country?
Re: What is your argument against secularism?
I am coming really late to this discussion, so am not sure if this argument has been made already, but here is my problem with secularism.
Secularism is essentially self-contradictory. It claims to exclude religion from the state and therefore claims that state is neutral to all religions.
But, when religion is excluded from the state, the vaccum is filled by a "religion" called secular humanism. This "religion" is privileged among all others and the State becomes, essentially, a church of secular humanism.
This is inevitable because there is really no such thing as an action that is value-neutral. In order to do anything at all the State must invoke some set of values. This set of values must come from some underlying world-view. That world-view, then, gets privileged over all others. Hence, the contradiction.
The idea behind secularism is that govt must remain neutral & there should be no officially sanctioned state religion. What a person believes or not is up to him or her. In other words, the idea is tolerances b/c religions by nature are destructive b/c of rigid sets of beliefs.