What is your argument against secularism?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
321

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Like I said its personal freedoms you enjoy in Europe and the US. You merely use religion as an excuse.

If you want separation of church and state fine. But if the will of the people is to ban alcohol then so be it. If they ban it for sake of health and security reasons then for you its permitted as you said because it has nothing to do with religion. Your problem is with religion and that is a personal issue.

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Re: What is your argument against secularism?

I just want to be able to do anything as long as I'm not harming anyone else.

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If they ban it for sake of health and security reasons then for you its permitted as you said because it has nothing to do with religion. Your problem is with religion and that is a personal issue
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No, my problem is with religious interference. I'm a Muslim, but I don't want Islamic laws in Pakistan. Whoever wants to practice Islam can practice it individually.

323

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Exactly. You don't secularism. You want the ability to do what you wish even though it is alien to Pakistan and its people. More importantly you don't want to feel judged because of it.

Your problem is with religion. Nothing else. Its personal.

You want to be able to drink alcohol because you feel you should be able to and dislike the idea that you can be judged as a bad Muslim because it. You want "secularism" for personal selfish reasons.

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Re: What is your argument against secularism?

And why do you want a Theocracy?

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Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Islamic culture is alien to countries like Denmark, yet they don't stop Muslims there.

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You want to be able to drink alcohol because you feel you should be able to and dislike the idea that you can be judged as a bad Muslim because it.
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I'll be judged as a bad Muslim if I drink even in NYC. I just don't want the state to interfere, because of religious reasons.

326

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

I never said I wanted a theocracy. The problem with assumptions my dear.

I want a democracy based on the ideals of Islam. However not based on Arab culture. You haven't been here a long time but I am one of the few people on this website that never considered Musharraf my President. I have always referred to him as CE (Chief Exective) or as military dictator. He violated the Pakistani constitution and committed treason.

327

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Yeah the Hijab in France and the Minarets in Switzerland are by no means examples of Islamic culture being forbidden.

So if the state interferes for non-religious reasons its okay? Good to know. Like I said your issue is your personal problem with religion. Nothing else.

328

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

So do I. A democratic state where justice prevails and where people don't die for lack of medicines and where every child can "make it". This is all very Islamic. I just don't want society to be governed by Islamic law (lie sex segregations, zina laws etc)

Someone once wrote: Musalman maine idher dekhe (India-Pak) aur Islam Europe mein dekha.

329

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Please state more. The full face covering is banned in France, not the head scarf. Anyways, just one slightly anti-islamic law per country. Compare that with the number of Islamic laws in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. There is never an ideal situation, but Switzerland is as good as you get to secularism.

And remember, they banned only minarets, not mosques.

330

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

You do realize you are now arguing two very different things right? You can't have a democratic state built on Islamic ideals and have it be secular. They are the exact opposite of each other.

331

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Um no. The EU and US are secular, but you have a much greater chance of getting justice there than you do in Pak. The Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH himself said that nations which punished the poor and not the rich were destroyed. Same thing happening in PAK. Recently, a video surfaced of a UAE sheik torturing an Afghan and the case was finally resolved out of court"

I'd like to see a US senator getting away like that. Islam calls for justice, peace and a just economic system. You can have that without banning co-ed schools.

332

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

So why are you against Islamic laws again?

333

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Have you read all the replies since your last post? I think I made it pretty clear that I'm against Islamic laws that try to control how people live, like the alcohol law, all that about mehrams and na-mehrams etc etc.

As I said earlier, I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not harming anyone else without the stat interfering.

334

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

You are deluding yourself. Just a simple premise. According to Islamic ideals the Quran is the word of Allah and you can not forgo it. In the Quran its says you can not have pre-martial sex. So it must be banned.

That goes against your secular western style of freedom to do whatever I want.

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Re: What is your argument against secularism?

I believe it is for the individual Muslim to decide whether he wants to have pre-martial sex or not. It's not for the state to meddle into his personal affairs if he's minding his own business.

WE are just going around in circles now. It's been a nice discussion, but I don't think anyone has moved an inch from their original positions.

336

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

If Islam hadn't laid such good examples of administration and justice to minorities as well as emphasis on peace, equality and accountability, I wouldn't have wanted Pakistan to be an Islamic state. But when I read that masjid-e-nabwi at the time of our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was also a social, educational, political and administrative centre it shows the all encompassing nature of Islam and we know the life of our Holy Prophet SAW is indeed a true guidance for us to follow.

Talk about Ghazwa badr's post war booty and captured kuffar-e-makkah. Weren't they treated nicely? Weren't their 'fidya' only to teach Muslim children and they were set free? What about Conquest of Makkah and the general pardon and kind treatment towards all the non-Muslims of Makkah? The final sermon at the Hajj where emphasis on equality and rights of human beings was laid by the Holy Prophet SAW. Where everybody despite religion,creed race and colour were meant to be equal. And still we want our state to be secular and religion confined to our homes and mosques only? Islam teaches riba (interest) free business, banking, trade, loans etc. What is wrong in that seeing the collossal amount of debt we are already in? Infact even the superpower US too is?

What kind of twisted logic is that? And foremost what Islam do we believe in if we don't believe that it's guidance for *all *aspects of our lives....

337

Re: What is your argument against secularism?

IceSoul - let it go, it's a lost cause at this point. Arguing here is not going to change Pakistan's future.

Very few people understood why slavery was inhumane, women have been oppressed for centuries and nobody cared enough to free them from their cultural and religious "duties" until now, nobody cares enough for anybody to take a stand against the system unless they are affected by it.

History repeats itself. Right now they all feel a secular system will destroy their morals, they prefer morality over humanity. It's sad but they are really not that different from those people who once thought slavery, racism, and women abuse were natural. Historically, people have become less barbaric with every revolution. Sooner or later, they will have to give up.

It's going to take more than just us talking for them to understand that without humanism, morality doesn't exist. They see secularism as something unrelated to humanism, which I don't get why but then again, it's probably just another argument in their favor. They do not really understand secularism. A secular system doesn't have to match an existing secular system. Make up your own to fit the needs of the country and keep teaching religion in your homes and mosques. Keep sending your kids to Islamic schools and teach them good values. Why must you persecute someone based on some 7th century law?

It doesn't matter what they all think anyway, it's the Pakistani people that need to be made aware of their human rights first. The change is inevitable. You can only resist it so much. When the entire world embraces secularism, it will be nearly impossible for them to fight it off. Remember, had the U.N. never intervened, Saudi markets would still be selling slaves - well sex slave trade is actually still there but at least it's illegal.

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Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Excoose meh?!

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Re: What is your argument against secularism?

Ever wondered that the texts you have read are biased? Cherrypicking an incident here and there does not mean this is how it happened after every battle.. It’s not this version of Islam the rest of the world sees anyway, don’t you think that matters too? Something just isn’t right. If ANY religious laws were so perfect, they would have worked at least in ONE country. There isn’t a single country in this world that has proved that a religious law is the best law for all humanity. It’s simply not and it’s because not all people follow one religion but we all UNDERSTAND what it means to be a human and to value life.

:hinna:

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Re: What is your argument against secularism?

You are thus then applying Islamic ideals in a democratic government. Muslims believe the Quran is the word of Allah and can not be violated. You violate the Quran you are committing a crime. If you are committing a crime you must be judged and punished. That is where the state comes in.

Just like the state punishes people for rape and murder. The Quran states both are wrong and thus punished. In the same vein, the Quran states pre-martial sex and alcohol are wrong and thus people are punished for both acts. In both cases the government or state punishes the people.