Yeah TLK ... I was gonna point out ... barbaric a punishment may be so but surely that strikes fear in to the heart of the would be criminal. It also serves to purge the person of their sin and they leave the world sinless ... People often who did crimes after hearing that worldly penalties remove their sins actually CHOSE the maximum punishments in order to receive forgiveness and that is what is documented today.
The problem is people tend to focus on this life being the means all end all ... but we see the Hereafter as the real abode. To an atheist the only thing I can say is if you don't believe in the Hereafter then don't give yourself up after sinning ... if you want to sin in an Islamic state then do so discretely just don't get caught, and if you do ... deny it and if there is no evidence against you then you can't get punished ... It is so easy. Or just don't commit adultery in the first place ... of course that is another option ...
It amuses me how you can't imagine that an atheist could be a moral being. It's one low blow after another from you! An atheist may not believe in the hereafter, but he/she will believe in the consequences of his/her actions and the law of the land. That should be enough to prevent him/her from committing a crime. If they still choose to do so, they have already decided to go against the law and give up their morals. Same goes for a religious person, the moment they decide to committ a crime, they give up their right to claim to be moral.
If you are so not okay with Haram things being legal, why do you live in Ireland?
And you can't have it both ways. Tose rules (most of them) are part of Islam. You wither take it or leave it, no middle way.
It's not like this my man...they are there to reap all the benefits of living in a secular state yet wouldn't care to have a similar system implemented in the very country they come from..So as long as they are not living in the sh**hole it's ok!
It was just now proved that stoning is not an Islamic law per se.
One of those days mate , One of those days :)
We all know that stoning is one of the laws from Shariat of Hazrat Musa - kept in Islamic Shariat as well .. so whts the point now ?
You have dodged the question, my friend :) I repeat, will you consolidate power the same way they did in the 7th century?
Go on and read this thread once again - and you will be surprised to find out who is actually dodging the questions here ... It is you mate !
and to answer your question - why shouldn't I opt for a system - which has gone through rigorous environment analysis , developed by an expert and accepted by users and finally gone live with a bang ...
We all know that stoning is one of the laws from Shariat of Hazrat Musa - kept in Islamic Shariat as well .. so whts the point now ?
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Go on and read this thread once again - and you will be surprised to find out who is actually dodging the questions here ... It is you mate !
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I answered all. Please tell me if I have missed any.
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*which has gone through rigorous environment analysis *, developed by an expert and accepted by users and finally gone live with a bang ...
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7th Century environment.
And when did it go live "with a bang" except in the 7th century or in countries like Saudi Arabia (where no one has any rights at all).
If you are so not okay with Haram things being legal, why do you live in Ireland?
And you can't have it both ways. Tose rules (most of them) are part of Islam. You wither take it or leave it, no middle way.
Haram things being legalised in Islamic societies* ... Hope that explains.
Drinking is the social norm in Ireland, kids as young as 12 drink openly with their parents. I couldn't care less about that but I do not want to see the same in an Islamic society.
And ofcourse there's a middle way between shariah law and secularism, muslims all around us live their lives in this balanced way!
Can she reply back to you that if you want to live in a state under secular laws - why dont you find one and live there :)
You missed the point mate :) I was asking why she lives in Ireland if she loves the Islamic system so much and doesn't want haraam things to be legal. That's a pretty legitimate question.
AS to why I do not find a secular state, that is because in Pakistan, we have enough to live life the way we want to live it. I don't drink, but I can say confidently that If I wanted to, I'd drink in front of a policeman.
Haram things being legalised in Islamic societies* ... Hope that explains.
Drinking is the social norm in Ireland, kids as young as 12 drink openly with their parents. I couldn't care less about that but I do not want to see the same in an Islamic society.
You don't even live in an Islamic society so why are you so concerned about what goes on there?
That's like me being all concerned about what happens in America.
It amuses me how you can't imagine that an atheist could be a moral being. It's one low blow after another from you! An atheist may not believe in the hereafter, but he/she will believe in the consequences of his/her actions and the law of the land. That should be enough to prevent him/her from committing a crime. If they still choose to do so, they have already decided to go against the law and give up their morals. Same goes for a religious person, the moment they decide to committ a crime, they give up their right to claim to be moral.
Apologies Theorist I was not being condescending ... I was being serious ... A true Muslim will value the concept of being sinless before he/she dies over the idea of being harmed or even maimed ... It is due to our belief in the Hereafter ... However for those atheists who do not believe in the Hereafter they can still live peacefully in an Islamic state ... they can simply be moral ... which I agree you can ... but even if a weak Muslim or a non-Muslim chooses to commit a sin in private and goes by undetected then there is no chance that can be punished unless the person one day openly admits it and wants to be given the penalty ... My point being an atheist can live fine in an Islamic state ... it has no jurisdiction to oppress atheists.
You missed the point mate :) I was asking why she lives in Ireland if she loves the Islamic system so much and doesn't want haraam things to be legal. That's a pretty legitimate question.
AS to why I do not find a secular state, that is because in Pakistan, we have enough to live life the way we want to live it. I don't drink, but I can say confidently that If I wanted to, I'd drink in front of a policeman.
Would you drink because you wanted to even if you religion tells you not to?
Apologies Theorist I was not being condescending ... I was being serious ... A true Muslim will value the concept of being sinless before he/she dies over the idea of being harmed or even maimed ... It is due to our belief in the Hereafter ... However for those atheists who do not believe in the Hereafter they can still live peacefully in an Islamic state ... they can simply be moral ... which I agree you can ... but even if a weak Muslim or a non-Muslim chooses to commit a sin in private and goes by undetected then there is no chance that can be punished unless the person one day openly admits it and wants to be given the penalty ...** My point being an atheist can live fine in an Islamic state ... it has no jurisdiction to oppress atheists**.
So what happens when a muslim leaves Islam and BECOMES an atheist? Does he still live in peace? I don't think so.... This is one of the biggest reasons I can't go back to Pakistan, dude.
You missed the point mate :) I was asking why she lives in Ireland if she loves the Islamic system so much and doesn't want haraam things to be legal. That's a pretty legitimate question.
No you missed the point - as there is no model Islamic state , if we had one , i bet all the muslims would move there - like jews did in case of Israel :)
pretty legitimate answer , isn't it ?
AS to why I do not find a secular state, that is because in Pakistan, we have enough to live life the way we want to live it. I don't drink, but I can say confidently that If I wanted to, I'd drink in front of a policeman.
If you are living a life of your choice secularism isn't it ? ] in Pakistan , what's the grief then ?
No you missed the point - as there is no model Islamic state , if we had one , i bet all the muslims would move there - like jews did in case of Israel :)
But there are partly Islamic states. Thats better than being totally un islamic. Please note that I'm saying in the sense that you guys take it, i.e haram things like booze, sex etc being banned. The justice systems of Europe and the US make them by far more Islamic than Pak. :)
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If you are living a life of your choice secularism isn't it ? ] in Pakistan , what's the grief then ?
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You don't even live in an Islamic society so why are you so concerned about what goes on there?
That's like me being all concerned about what happens in America.
You don't even live in Saudi Arabia and you want it demolished, don't you? So why can't I be concerned about what goes on there when in fact I have every reason to as Makkah and Madinah are sacred places for ALL muslims who have every right to state that unislamic practices should not be allowed there.
You don't even live in Saudi Arabia and you want it demolished, don't you? So why can't I be concerned about what goes on there when in fact I have every reason to as Makkah and Madinah are sacred places for ALL muslims who have every right to state that unislamic practices should not be allowed there.
Saudi Arabia was just an example. What about other Islamic Societies that you talked about? You said you don't want Haraam things there. I repeat, my question is, why are you so concerned about Islamic Societies and why do you live in a totally secular society, where every Haram thing is legal when you could move back to Pakistan, the bastion of Islam?
So what happens when a muslim leaves Islam and BECOMES an atheist? Does he still live in peace? I don't think so.... This is one of the biggest reasons I can't go back to Pakistan, dude.
If you are going to answer you own questions ... why ask? The answer is simple If a Muslim leaves Islam whilst living in an Islamic state then don't declare that fact and don't call others to it ... because they would be seen as sowing discord and would subject to laws of high treason. But if a person stopped believing in Islam then what can anybody do about that?
If anything it demonstrates the lack in the ability of the society to show people the beauty of Islam and we already know that there will be many people who don't follow Islam - that is fine it is their choice ...
As for Pakistan you have a point ... but is that a true Islamic state? I don't think so ... Anyway if you did go to Pakistan you don't have to go around shouting "I'm an atheist - come and get me"
The justice systems of Europe and the US make them by far more Islamic than Pak. :)
Pakistan should definitely look up to the justice system of the West but it does not need to legalise alcohol to achieve a balance in the society. So we're back to what I initially said. There needs to be a balance between religion and state rules which I just don't see in secular nations or societies governed by shariah law.
Pakistan should definitely look up to the justice system of the West but it does not need to legalise alcohol to achieve a balance in the society. So we're back to what I initially said. There needs to be a balance between religion and state rules which I just don't see in secular nations or societies governed by shariah law.
^Secular justice system doesn't have to legalise drugs/alcohol. I think most people just have a problem accepting the word "secular" as if it's some sort of an insult. In the end, I think we all really desire the same outcome. So in that, I agree with you BarbieQue.
Religion is personal and should stay that way. Not everyone is muslim but we are all human beings.
Some "religions" may be, but not all are "personal".