What is the Punishment in Hinduism ?

[quote]
Originally posted by OldLahori:
A few days ago, I was being called a missionary. Now I am being called a hindu.
Cool down: It is amazing you guys need to pigeon hole a person to even interpret.
I was born into a muslim family. I have been to pakistan a few times. I am not a Hindu. I am not a christian. AND I am starting to wonder if I am even a Muslim after reading the existing post of the 'real' muslims on this forum!! I guess I am not a real muslim. Why do muslims have to react in hate? Education and knowledge is not a private domain of any religion, is it? Just because I don't froth at the mouth at christians, hindus, buddhists, sikhs, etc. makes me a less of a muslim? Try the link, it is working now.

[/quote]

I am very very sorry. I didn't read your reply that day. once again I am very sorry.

[quote]
Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger:
If a Hindu kill another Hindu or a person from other religion. What does Hinduism say about it?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : greetings of peace to one and all,

Sorry about the belated reply, since I have been on the road for a few weeks now and just got back. (hope to be out again shortly)

Now concerning killing and other punishments in Hinduism, the laws are as follows

"One-fourth of (the punishment for) Brahmin-killing is traditionally regarded as (the punishment) for the killing of a Ksatriya, one-eighth for (killing) a Vaisya, and it should be one-sixteenth for (killing) a Sudra who knows his place." -- Manusmrti 11:127.

"If someone born in a Ksatriya, Vaisya, or Sudra womb should be unable to pay his fine, he may absolve himself of the debt by labour; ** a Brahmin should pay little by little.** The king should** have women, children, madmen, and the old, the poor, and the ill chastised with a whip, a bamboo cane, a rope, and so forth."** -- Manusmrti 9:229-230.

"....for killing a goose, a crane, a heron, a peacock, a monkey, a falcon, or a vulture,** he should give a cow.** For killing a horse, ** he should give a garment;** for an elephant, five black bulls; for a goat or sheep, a draught ox; for a donkey, a one-year-old (calf). But for killing carnivorous wild animals he should give a milk-cow, and for non-carnivores, a heifer; for a camel, a 'berry' (a small measurement in copper, silver or gold). ** To become clean after killing an unchaste woman of any of the four castes a man should give a leather bag, a bow, a billy-goat, or a sheep, individually according to the caste."** -- Manusmrti 11:136-139. **

** The commentaries explain that the leather bag is given for the killing of a woman of the Brahmin caste, the bow for the woman of the Ksatriya caste, the billy-goat for the Vaisya woman and the sheep for the Sudra woman.

"An adulterer shall be made to pay the highest amercement if he has had connection with a woman of his own caste; for adultery with women of a lower caste, the second amercement; the same (fine is ordained) for a bestial crime committed with a cow.** He who has had connection with a woman of one of the lowest castes, shall be put to death. ** For a bestial crime committed with cattle (other than cows) he shall be fined a hundred Karshapanas." -- Visnusmrti 5:40-44.

"If one who (being a member of the Candala or some other outcaste) must not be touched, intentionally defiles by his touch one who (as a member of a twice-born caste) may be touched (by other twice-born persons only), he (or she) shall be put to death.** If a woman in her courses (touches such a person), she shall be lashed with a whip."** -- Visnusmrti 5:104-5.

** "With whatever limb an inferior insults or hurts his superior in caste, of that limb the king shall cause him to be deprived.** If he places himself on the same seat with his superior, he shall be banished with a mark on his buttocks. If he spits on him, he shall lose both lips; If he breaks wind against him, his hindparts; If he uses abusive language, his tongue. If a (lowborn) man through pride gives instruction (to a member of the highest caste) concerning his duty, let the king order hot oil to be dropped into his mouth. If a (low-born man) mentions the name or caste of a superior revilingly, an iron pin, ten inches long, shall be thrust into his mouth (red hot)." -- Visnusmrti 5:19-25.

** "If a man of one birth (Sudra) hurls cruel words at one of the twice-born, his tongue should be cut out, for he was born from the rear-end** . If he mentions their name or caste maliciously, a red-hot iron nail ten-fingers long should be thrust into his mouth.** If he is so proud as to instruct priests about their duty, the king should have hot oil poured into his mouth and ears." ** -- Manusmrti 8:270-272.

"If a man of inferior caste tries to sit down on the same seat as a man of superior caste,** he should be branded on the hip and banished, or have his buttocks cut off."** -- Manusmrti 8:281.

Ibrahim says: this should sum up the kind of justice Hinduism enjoins for mankind. Not at all pleasant but hindus have come to accept them out of fear. Although not practiced as conveyed in the current times , the conditions are prevalent ( you only need to ask a dalit to confirm its presence) But approach any hindu today and he will talk about the Indian constitution as what Hinduism prescribes.

Regards
Ibrahim

Ibrahim,
which dalit did you ask to confirm its prescence may I know. The strength of Hindusim(or christianity for that matter) lies in reform. Its abscence is what has created a population of 500 million sex slaves in the form of women in Islam.

[This message has been edited by sundaram (edited March 13, 2002).]

Ibrahim, I hope you know, majority of hindus are not aware of what manusmriti says or ask them to do. Even manusmriti does not claim it to be word of god like muslims believe quran is. BTW what is your source of manusmriti couplets (I would like to read the things in there proper context, although I believe whatever you say about manusmriti, if exists, should be condemned and to your horror are condemned by modern day hindus). If there is female infanticide it is cos of social reasons rather than religious.

PS : Don't forget to give me your link to manusmriti.

dhir,
The manusmriti was codified as a set of laws during the harappan age, when the first inscriptions of Hindu gods were unearthed. It was the first known bunch of codified laws along with the torah. Unlike what these elements want you to believe it had a lot of egalitarian aspects---The concept of a state with political & economic roles was modelled , laws were codified for criminal offences etc All this before 1000 B.C. But it is primitive in terms of its laws but this great religion has found egalitarian reformers in its confines like Adi Shankara, Ramanujacharyar etc. who openly rebuked its poor aspects in their philosophies. It is these set of compositions/codes that we follow today. The hindu civil law borrows most its definitions(like what constitutes a hindu undivided family, the equitable distribution of property to progenies etc.) from the reformist schools. The masses have to be educated more on this so that any kind of discrimination is comphrehensively uprooted.

Better than no reform and a population of sex slaves isn't it????

About infanticide in hinduism, its ridiculous. Its rooted in a practise that's based on a false notion of economic loss with a daughter the very same notion the chinese share--A son will look after his parents,till the farm till his death, is better farm labour & all else. Again poor awareness & nothing more. Ifanticide is India is recognized as a social problem and in states like Tamil Nadu where is is acute the govt. runs one of the best awareness campaigns you can see in a developing country.

And what is there for muslims to crow about low infanticide if the only reasons women exist are to be penetrated by men. The holy prophet with his wives,kids & concubines showed the way. These folks faithfully follow it.The levels of female literacy among women ranks lower than any other community. do you need any more proof to show they are sex slaves.

Consider this.Saudi Arabia where Islam is practised like the Prophet dreamed has an annual population growth rate of 4.5%. To give you an idea what that means, more kids cannot be born because the gestation period for producing a baby is 10 months. That's pretty close to the freaking upperlimit if you assume that fertility for femlaes over 35 drops drastically. Putting it bluntly its sex & kids all year for a puritan female follower of Islam in Saudi Arabia.

[This message has been edited by sundaram (edited March 13, 2002).]

Sundaram, for one I am aware what Manusmriti is and what is its place in modern day hindus life. I sincerely believe and know that not many have ever seen manusmriti in their life, leave aside reading it and following it. It is more social aspect rather than religious instructions from books that command the way hinduism evolves. Unlike all other religions, hinduism is not based on a book (manusmriti or vedas or whatever but is a mix of all where a follower tries to follow the best of all and leave aside what his heart does not believes in, and still he remains a hindu unlike muslims who have to follow quran or else).

My point to ibrahim is that one, manusmriti is not all in all of hinduism and second, it is true that the basic structure of present day India comes out of manusmriti and hence i would like to read manusmriti that he is producing (from the source he is getting it from). That will also help verify the authority of that source on manusmriti

Ibrahim, I see that you popped back with Manu Smriti again.
Please know that a majority of HIndus don't know what is in Manu Smriti and couldn't care less.
As Sundaram pointed out, our Religion is not frozen in time.
Caste is a form of apartheid and Indian Legal systems are designed to guard against untouchability.

And Ibrahim, tell me if the ofllowing are from Holy Quran: -

II/223: Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate). So go to your tilth as ye will...

Here you can clearly see how highly Islam treats women. Women in Islam are referred to as fields that are to be cultivated by man. What an honour for a Muslim woman!

IV/34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.

First point to notice here is that Quran clearly states that Men are superior to women. Secondly, Islam instructs that a man should control his women through brutal violence and fear.

IV/15: (For women) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.

IV/16: (For Men) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

As you can see, for women any sort of sexual exploration is punishable by death. Whereas for a man, any form of perversion is pardoned by the all merciful Allah.

XXIV/6-7: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...

Here we see, that a husband can easily accuse his wife (or wives) and eventually sentence her to death by merely declaring four times that the accusation is true. On the other hand, women have no such right in Islam.

Quotes from Hadith TIRMZI AND OTHERS
If a woman's conduct is mischievous or immodest, the husband has the right to beat her up but must not break her bones. She must not allow anybody to enter the house if her husband does not like him. She has the right to expect sustenance of her husband. (TR. P 439)

It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. (TR. P 430)

A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father

A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. (TR. P 432)

She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. (TR. P 265)

A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers (NAFAL) or observe fasting (other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband. (TR. P 300)

If prostration were a legitimate act other than to God, woman should have prostrated to her husband. (TR. P 428)

If a man is in a mood to have sexual intercourse the woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (TR. P 428)

The marriage of a woman to her man is not substantive. It is precarious. For example if the father of the husband orders his son to divorce his wife, he must do so. (TR. P 440)

A woman who seeks KHULA i.e. divorce from her man, without a just cause, shall not enter paradise. (TR. P 440)
On the contrary, a husband can divorce his wife at will.

Majority of women would go to hell. (Muslim P 1431)

If a woman refuses to come to bed when invited by her husband, she becomes the target of the curses of angles. Exactly the same happens if she deserts her husband's bed. (Bokhari P 93)

Women who are ungrateful to their men are the denizens of hell; it is an act of ingratitude for a woman to say: "I have never seen any good from you." (Bokhari P 96)

A woman in many ways is deprived of the possession of her own body. Even her milk belongs to her husband. (Bokhari P 27) She is not allowed to practise birth control either.

Quotes From Sahih Muslim Hadith
Chapter 540.The prophet said that he saw a woman coming and going in the shape of a devil and she fascinated him. So he came to his wife, Zainab, as she was tanning leather and had sexual intercourse with her. That drove out what he felt in his heart.

Chapter 558. The prophet said: "When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her.

Chpater 576. The prophet said :"Woman has been created from a rib, and will in no way be straightened for you."

Anwar Shaikh , the author of Islam: An Arab National Movement says:
"It shows the basic doctrine of Islam about womanhood, that is, she is basically crooked, and man has the right to keep her under his constant vigil; she must never be left alone."

In fact, another hadith expresses woman's position bluntly:

 "I have not left any calamity more
  hurtful to man than woman."

Chapter 619: Selling a cat, selling a dog (unless it is a working dog), and earning of prostitutes(unless they are non-muslims),... are all forbidden.

This verse encourages the Muslim invaders to convert women of other faith into prostitutes for their own enjoyment as prostitution by non-muslims is NOT forbidden. We can see plenty of examples of this throughout history, especially Indian history.

Chapter 1140: The prophet said : "The majority of those who entered the fire of Hell were women."

So Islam considers most of the women are evil in nature and they end up in hell.

Malik 362:1221 Ibn Fahd said "I have some slave girls who are better than my wives, but I do not desire that they should all become pregnant. Shall I do azl(withdrawal) with them?" Hajjaj said "They are your fields of cultivation. If you wish to irrigate them do so, if not keep them dry."

Gazzali, the renowned Islamic thinker summed up the 18 pains that had been visited on Muslim women as a punishment for Eve's transgression in paradise. The list eloquently shows the position of women in Islam and how the social customs were backed up by Islam. Here Islam goes to the extent of saying that even pregnancy and childbirth are punishments from God. Such is the nature of the all merciful Allah!!!

The 18 punishments are:

Menstruation
Childbirth
Separation from father and mother and marriage to a stranger
Pregnancy
Not having control over her own person
A lesser share in inheritance.
Her liability to be divorced and inability to divorce.
It being lawful for man to have 4 wives but for a woman to have only 1 husband.
The fact that she must stay secluded in the house
The fact that she must keep her head covered inside the house.
The fact that 2 women's testimonies have to be set against the testimony of one man.
The fact that she must not go out of the house unless accompanied by a near relative.
The fact that men take part in Friday and feast day funerals while women do not.
Disqualification for rulership and judgeship.
The fact that merit has 100 components, only one of which is attributable to women while 999 are attributed to men.
The fact that if women are profligate they will be given only half as much torment as the rest of the community at the ressurection day.
The fact that if their husbands die they must observe a waiting period of 4 months and 10 days before they remarry.
The fact that if their husbands divorce them , they must observe a waiting period of 3 months or 3 menstrual periods before remarrying.

[quote]
Sundaram:
Ibrahim, which dalit did you ask to confirm its prescence may I know.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: why sundaram dear, you have personal knowledge of every dalit in India or you have nothing else to argue about concerning how Hindus behaved in India in the past and to some extent to the present, as per their scared teachings?

Now if you want to impress us that you were ignorant of what is going on in India, you just made that look obvious. Hence use your search engines and search for castes and dalits and you will get numerous articles on this plight in India.

[quote]
The strength of Hindusim(or christianity for that matter) lies in reform.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says LOL! That is the secret of their failure and the reason why God rejected them and promised to send them to hell for altering and reforming HIS instructions to mankind.

[quote]
Its abscence is what has created a population of 500 million sex slaves in the form of women in Islam.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: my my so it is just going to be slander and mud slinging, the only thing a hindu is capable of!

Now when you get your brain cells functioning try to substantiate your claims.

Regards
Ibrahim

** How you behave when you don’t know what to do will reveal your true character **

Ibrahim says: Dhir dear, that is why the BJP, VHP and RSS thugs are taking them around the band according to what the priests or these thugs says the hindu will do. So much so they are marrying human beings to dogs in India, Killing human beings as sacrifice to idols etc, etc.

Ibrahim says: why would manusmrti claim anything when the Brahmins know how important it is to their faith? Are you not aware that the Vedas cannot be touched by the sudra and Only Brahmins can be priests in India?

Ibrahim says: man this is a silly question but I have to excuse you. In scripture manu smrti is manusmrti , it can have different translators into other languages but the smrti will remain the same in Sanskrit language which it originally was compiled in .

This is the same for all scriptures. The Qur’an for instance is revealed in Arabic but is available in many translations today similarly the Veda and smrti was also revealed in the middle east that was carried by mouth to India and ended up in the Sanskrit translation as being the current original for it ( this is same as the Gospel which was revealed in the middle east but its original is in Greek today)

Ibrahim says: talking without knowledge amounts to folly but I need to excuse you since you are Hindu

Now go back on this thread and read all the info concerning female infanticide and its origin in hindu scared teachings.

Read!

Atharva Veda. 6.2.3 : ** " Let a female child be born somewhere else; here, let a male child be born." **

** “And whilst not coming into contact with Sudras and remains of food; for this Gharma is he that shines yonder, and he is excellence, truth, and light; but woman, the Sudra, the dog, and the black bird (the crow), are untruth: he should not look at these,** lest he should mingle excellence and sin, light and darkness, truth and untruth.” – Satapatha Brahmana 14:1:1:31.

Hence in Hinduism women were considered evil as such Hindus killed them

Ibrahim says: I suggest you do a search on the net for manu smrti, you will get the links on what has been placed on the net as well as where you can buy hard copies of that book . You can use any translation of manu smsrti , the message will not vary only the choice of words used will differ according to the translator. I am a researcher on scriptures I do not always use links as my source of info, all my scripture quotes are in my hard drive which I use and obtain through research from hindu Sanskrit scholars themselves as well as years of discussions with learned as well as vile hindus on sacred matters of their faith.

Regards
Ibrahim

** the tricks of a crooked person ties him into knots / b]

[quote]
Originally posted by sundaram:
**Its abscence is what has created a population of 500 million sex slaves in the form of women in Islam.

[This message has been edited by sundaram (edited March 13, 2002).]**
[/quote]

** Who are you bull-sh**ing here?? Muslim women in India are treated far better than Hindu women. *

P.S - Btw, the population of Muslims is 1.9 billion, not 1 billion that the Westerners would love us to believe.

I talked to an atheist from Ghana , Africa, just today, and he also was telling me that Islam is largest religion on Earth.

Of course, the kuffar would love to believe something else.

[This message has been edited by Indian_Muslim (edited March 13, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
** cool down one can live without a religious label but not nationality.

**
[/quote]

** But you'll only take your religion to your grave, not your nationality !!! **

good talk to somebody from thimbaktu to very that its 3 billion.

[quote]
Originally posted by sundaram:
good talk to somebody from thimbaktu to very that its 3 billion.
[/quote]

How predictable from a Hindu!!!!!

How predictable from a Muslim who is convinced the Jews,Chiristians and Hindus have just one goal in life--defame muslims.

The bottomline is this. If you respect my religion I'll reciprocate in kind. If you are after slandering it,I'll pull out your jaw for a tooth.Good luck and I don't intend wasting more time on you.

Ibrahim says: dhir dear , I wont you to use your brains, not just swallow but digest what you read.

Had your mother not been a tilth , where would you have come from?

BTW ask you mother , if she lost any honor by giving birth to you or by allowing your father to use her as and when he desired.

At the same time read what your scripture says:

** “Good looks do not matter to them, nor do they care about youth; ‘A man!’ they say, and enjoy sex with him, whether he is good-looking or ugly. By running after men like whores, by their fickle minds, and by their natural lack of affection these women are unfaithful to their husbands even when they are zealously guarded here** . Knowing that their very own nature is like this, as it was born at the creation by the Lord of Creatures (Prajapati), a man should make the utmost effort to guard them. The bed and the seat, jewellery, lust, anger, crookedness, a malicious nature, and bad conduct are what Manu assigned to women. ** There is no ritual with Vedic verses for women; this is a firmly established point of law. For women, who have no virile strength, and no Vedic verses, are falsehood; this is well established.”** – Manusmrti 9:14-18.

Ibrahim says: Now read this and compare.

"[Rama:] ‘Do you keep your womenfolk pacified? Are they duly protected by you? ** I hope you do not repose excessive faith in them and do not confide your secrets to them.’ "** – Ramayana 2:100.

** “Men must make their women dependent day and night, and keep under their own control those who are attached to sensory objects. ** Her father guards her in childhood, her husband guards her in youth, and her sons guard her in old age. A woman is not fit for independence.” – Manusmrti 9:2-4.

** “Women are powerless, have no inheritance, and speak more humbly than even a bad man.” ** – Krsna Yajur Veda Taittiriya Samhita 6:5:8:2.

"Lord Indra himself has said,** ‘The mind of woman cannot be disciplined; she has very little intelligence.’ "** – Rig Veda 8:33:17.

Ibrahim says: Now dhir dear, let me now quote the verse you are quoting in complete form

4: 34 ** Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. ** Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. ** As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct ** admonish them (first) (next) refuse to share their beds (and last) beat them (lightly); ** but if they return to obedience seek not against them means (of annoyance):** for Allah is Most High Great (above you all)

Ibrahim says : see how the verse you quoted and the verse I am quoting is not the same, obviously the one you quote is being edited to suit your purpose

Now tell me what is wrong with the above verse, I mean use your BRAINS and try and find some fault with it, not parrot what others said.

Ibrahim says . Now dhir dear, see what the actual verse says and what you had spliced it to be

4: 15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness ** take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify** confine them to houses until death do claim them ** or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.**

Now tell us what is wrong with this commandment?

Now compare this with the hindu method, which they devised for themselves

Read.

“A woman who has been unchaste should worship Siva in his calm aspect, Siva who is Kama. ** Then she should summon a Brahmin and give herself to him,** thinking, ‘This is Kama who has come for the sake of sexual pleasure.’ And whatever the Brahmin wishes, the sensuous woman should do. ** For thirteen months she should honour in this way any Brahmin who comes to the house for the sake of sexual pleasures, and there is no immorality in this for noble ladies or prostitutes.”** – Matsya Purana 70:40-60; cf. Mahabharata III:2:23.

Ibrahim says : see in Hinduism an unchaste women must become a prostitute to every Brahmin who calls on her for 13 months
Dhir dear ask your mother or sister what she will prefer, the Islamic civilized method or the Brahmin folly.

Ibrahim says: Observe your folly., read the next verse

4: 17 Allah accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

Now show me in which verse is death ordained for a women who sleeps with another women as you claim above? Or where in Islam the laws for fornication or adultery is different for man and women???

Now compare what hindu laws ordain for unchaste women in addition to being used as a prostitute for 13 months on conviction, she can be killed with compensation being offered for her killing.

Read!

“…for killing a goose, a crane, a heron, a peacock, a monkey, a falcon, or a vulture, he should give a cow. For killing a horse, he should give a garment; for an elephant, five black bulls; for a goat or sheep, a draught ox; for a donkey, a one-year-old (calf). But for killing carnivorous wild animals he should give a milk-cow, and for non-carnivores, a heifer; for a camel, a ‘berry’ (a small measurement in copper, silver or gold).** To become clean after killing an unchaste woman of any of the four castes a man should give a leather bag, a bow, a billy-goat, or a sheep, individually according to the caste.” ** – Manusmrti 11:136-139. **

Ibrahim says: dhir dear, Observe your folly

Read

24: 6 And for those who launch a charge against their spouses ** and have (in support) no evidence but their own their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; **

7 And the fifth (oath) (should be) ** that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.**

8 ** But it would avert the punishment from the wife** if she bears witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that (her husband) is telling a lie;

9 And the fifth (oath) should be ** that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth. **

10 If it were not for Allah’s grace and mercy on you and that Allah is Oft-Returning Full of Wisdom (ye would be ruined indeed).

Ibrahim says : hence see how humane this way of settling suspicions between marital couples are, instead of killing her and paying a Billy goat for her as in Hinduism, a men and women merely bear witness against each other and decide as to whatever settlement that suits them after that.

Ibrahim says dhir dear… let me give you an example

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith ** Hadith 265** Narrated by Al-A’mash

Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, ** The calamity of knowledge is its forgetfulness and its wastage is to impart it to those who are not worthy of it.**
Darimi transmitted it as mursal.

Ibrahim says : dhir dear, see Al Timidhi hadiths are compiled with hadith numbers ( note the 265 you referred to and the 265 I am quoting)

** Now come back to me with proper references and complete hadiths, not splice jobs ** that you used as above in the Qur’an and we can examine each one and note which is considered authentic and which may be considered weak or fabricated hadiths.

Ibrahim says dhir dear same problem, quote proper references with complete texts , let me give example

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith ** Hadith 1.1 ** Narrated by Umar bin Al Khattab

I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ** “The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended.** So whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for.”

Ibrahim says: hmmm again same problem, what’s the matter dhir? You trying to deceive the Muslims by quoting chapters and page number WITHOUT EXACT reference number?
Let me give example again for your sake since you are a hindu.

Sahih Muslim Hadith ** Hadith 54 ** Narrated by Abbas ibn Abdul Muttalib

Abbas heard the Messenger of Allah as saying: He relished the flavour of faith (Iman) who became pleased with Allah as Lord, with al-Islam as the code of life and with Muhammad as the Messenger of Allah.

Ibrahim says: dhir dear Al-Muwatta Hadith does not have such a reference, so give
proper source and proper references please, otherwise I cannot verify them and I will to have consider you as a malicious prankster trying to defame Islam

Regards
Ibrahim

** An idle mind is the devils workshop **

[quote]
Originally posted by sundaram:
**
The bottomline is this. If you respect my religion I'll reciprocate in kind. **
[/quote]

Sir, I'd be highly obliged if you could show me a SINGLE message of yours where you have applied this principle.

Each one of my previous posts before today. I never a wrote a single post explicitly ridiculing Islam. Go back to the archives & check out.

How convenient. Here is your charade exposed with explicit refernces and links.

Inspired By Islam (What the most famous cleric has to say):

From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990 :

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister.
...]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

How it all began ( a long time ago in the isolated deserts of Arabia) :

Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad's closest friend and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIH BUKHARI, 5:235] and he wasted no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact that object of his dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume that it is "normal" for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5 old child, and then ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?

Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had over 9 wives and concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old girl?

Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual relationship with Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need for a larger latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed by:
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven)." [Bukhari.1:268]

When she was 6, Muhammad asked Abu Bakr, Aisha's father, for her hand. Abu Bakr thought it was improper, because, as he said "I am your brother"; Muhammad brushed aside Abu Bakr's reservation by saying that it was perfectly lawful for him to marry Aisha Ref: SAHIH BUKHAR I7:18].

What happened to " there is no compulsion in matters of religion ?" Anyway what compulsion did Muhhammad need being a prophet his word was law, he restricted men to only four wives when he himself had more than four, that was a convenient exemption for Muhhammad.

So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e. when Aisha was 9, the marriage was consumed. And Muhammad was 53 then [SAHIH BUKHARI 5:236,7:64,7:65,7:88] .

The 3 year waiting period probably had to do with the fact that at that time Aisha had contracted some disease, whereby she, temporarily lost her hair. Aisha was then socially and psychologically still a child as is evidenced by the fact that she was still given to her toys, she was unaware of what was happening around her, and her playmates behave as would the children at present times [Sahih Bukhari 8:151,5:234].

Aisha became Muhammad's favourite wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant SAHIH BUKHARI .1.270, 3:36, 7:6, 3:148, 3:149, 3:150, 7:142, IbnSa'd 1pg165 ]. Later, Aisha was to be called the "mother of believers".

If you are wandering, yes, the relationship was pedophilic.

When did the sexual relations between Prophet Mohammad and his child bride begin?

Unfortunately we do not have any video recordings of such events. Neither can we expect that there would be any explicit statements regarding this. In any case it is certain that she had NOT reached puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house, which in itself, contrary to the prevailing social norms, is a tacit implication that he may indulge in whatever fantasies he may have had when he asked for Aisha's hand. And Muhammad did have fantasies.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, BUT the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

It is, however, very unlikely that Muhammad would have waited for the onset of the menses; or at most it could have been just after the 1st drops. The evidence is necessarily indirect.

His strong desire to "graze of the (tree) of which nothing has been eaten before", as his other wives had not been virgins.

Menses or fasting do not reduce Muhammad's desire and potency for sex. His nightly rounds to his wives(lastly 12-13) did require more than average potency.

New additions to his harem lead to intensive sexual activity, e.g. arrival of Maria lead to increased, initial spurt of sexual activity to the neglect of others .

The intervals between prayers are used for quick stands "I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it."

Other wives try to please Muhammad by sacrificing their turns in favor of Aisha.

During his last fatal illness he cries: "Where will I be tomorrow? Where will I be tomorrow?", seeking Aisha's turn.


Prophet Say: Marry Young Virgins

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?'

Silent Children :

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

Where sex is akin to a crime, silence is admission of your guilt. What a corruption of "fitrah" ( human nature).

What religion condones the destruction of childhood? What are we who daily avow our undying love for Allah to do against a system that ruthlessly oppresses its youngest and brightest ?


What was Aisha's age? I have heard other figures ... (A question also known as: How many of your own sources will you deny ? )
All the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn Hanbal, etc.) maintain that Aisha was bethroted to Mohammed when she was 6, and the marraige was consummated 3 years later.
'Mahommad - The Word of Allah' written by Anne-Marie Delcambre. (Anne-Marie Delcambre has a doctorate in 'Islamology', and taught Islamic Civilisation at the Saint Joseph University of Beyrouth in Lebanon). On page 69, it says that he was married to her when she was 9 years old.

Dates commonly accepted by scholars: Birth Muhammad(570), birth Aisha(614 or 615). Bethrothal(620 or 621), Consummation of marriage(623 or 624). In particular the "consummation" of marriage is said to have taken place after the hidjra in Shawwal 1 or 2. Between 621 and 623 Asiha is said to have contracted a disease whereby she temporarily lost her hair. (Ref 1)

She could not have been more than 10 years when she went to live in Muhammad's house. The fact that she took her toys with her to her new home indicates that she was psychologically and socially still a child. And the fact that she was allowed to play with DOLLS indicates that she had NOT reached puberty by this time. ("The playing with the dolls and similar images was(is) forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty."Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13). Besides, there is also Aisha's own statement which implies that she had NOT reached puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house[Sahih Bukhari 7.163]. I am sure she would have been able to recount accurately as to when and where she got her first menses. Most girls do remember such events rather accurately. (Refs 2)

What is "sick" is that Muhammad had started to dream of a union with Aisha already when she was 4-5 years old: "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you...(and) I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen." He was to use a similar tactic when he wanted to marry his step son's wife. A tactic which Aisha later came to understand as fraud, as in: "Aisha said: O Allah's Apostle! I do not see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." (Refs 2)

Muhammad wasted no time in realizing what he had been dreaming. Already when Aisha was 6 "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." Here it does not seem that Abu Bakr consented to the marriage wholeheartedly.

REFERENCES (1) Les femmes du Prophete Prof.Magali Morsi, Professor of History, University of Muhammed V, Rabat, Morocco.

(2) Shahih Bukhari: [1.229] [1.230] [1.231] [1.232] [1.233] [1.258] [1.263] [1.267] [1.270] [1.294] [1.296] [1.298] [1.299] [3.148] [3.149] [3.150] [3.853] [4.736] [5.235] [5.236] [5.731] [7.14] [7.15] [7.57] [7.48] [7.57] [7.64] [7.65] [7.86] [7.88] [7.90] [7.144] [7.163] [8.151] [9.139] [9.140]

  • "And if a woman is sexually mature I see nothing wrong with her marriage in general, with a man of any age... "- A muslim.

For those Muslims who approve of the above statement ( and hold similar views ): Would you let your daughters go through this ?


Pedophile ?
What are the essential features of pedophilia.?

Professors of psychiatry, Harold I.Kaplan MD and Benjamin J.Sadock MD. of New York University Medical School states the essential features to diagnose pedophilia are:

1.Identification with and narcissistic investment in immature sexual objects.

Muhammad's infatuation and relationship with Aisha fits this criterion. And Mohammad was vain too - he liked to use perfume and dye his hair (even as an old man).

  1. Control, domination and seduction of children.

A slight recalcitrance on the part of his wives was met by intolerant threats like: "if he (Muhammad) divorce you, (Allah) will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins." [K 66.5]

  1. Sexual activity with children is preferential and occur repeatedly.

Aisha was ever present, right up to his last fatal breath and he preferred spending his nights with her. Aisha became Muhammad's favorites wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant. [Sahih Bukhari 1.270,3:36,7:6,3:148,3:149,3:150,7:142,IbnSa'd 1pg165]


Is menses necessary indicator of sexual maturity ?
Sexual maturity is NOT PURELY RELATED TO MENSES as for some peculiar reasons many Muslims have tried to say.

In the first place having or not having menses is not the criterion for sexual maturity, and thus of pedophilic behaviour. We have cases here, of abducted girls, 12, 13, 14, well past their mens, and yet preferred by pedophiles as sexual objects.

Besides when Aisha was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of a union with her [Sahih Bukhari 5:235]- I am sure Ayesha was not menstruating then . Or do Arab girls menstruate at the age of 4-5 ?

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**Had your mother not been a tilth , where would you have come from? **

That’s a typical Khushwant Singh’s response. By that logic why should blue films be banned in Pakistan. After all it is the most basic thing god has sent us for, to reproduce and give birth to next generation. And not only us, same is true for all animal kingdom. I see a lot of guppies from Pakistan laugh at indian temples depicting nudity, then what’s wrong with that.

BTW ask you mother , if she lost any honor by giving birth to you or by allowing your father to use her as and when he desired.

I don’t know about typical muslim women, but I strongly object to the second part of your sentence. I would like to have comments from muslim women if they agree with the sentence ‘by allowing your father to use her as and when he desired’. In civilised word we call it rape, i.e. till the lady herself is willling. You are aware of Bobbit.

"[Rama:] ‘Do you keep your womenfolk pacified? Are they duly protected by you? I hope you do not repose excessive faith in them and do not confide your secrets to them.’ " – Ramayana 2:100.

I refuse to accept that these are sentences from Ramayana. Pls. give me a link to support your claim or else refrain. Similarly give links to your claim from Manusmriti, I say, whatever you are quoting simply do not exist.
And also specify which Ramayana are you talking about, is it Tulsi Ramayan or Uttar Ramayana or some other (Given your level of study, I hope you know all of them).

. Then she should summon a Brahmin and give herself to him, ………. and there is no immorality in this for noble ladies or prostitutes." – Matsya Purana 70:40-60; cf. Mahabharata III:2:23.

I am sure, this is an excerpt from muslim propaganda site, pls. suitably support your claim. Nonetheless, if any such thing exist (which I am sure, doesn’t), and hindus do not follow them, there is no binding.

**otherwise I cannot verify them and I will to have consider you as a malicious prankster trying to defame Islam **

First thing, I hope you know all these books you are quoting are written in Sanskrit (that too a difficult prose style) and not everybody understands completely what the verse says, hence give me a link from where you are getting these translations, in order to ascertain whether that person/group is capable of understanding basic Sanskrit even.
In any case what you said about me, same is true for you. All the crap you are producing from Ramayana, Manusmriti, etc. should be supported by some link or else I will have to consider you a malicious prankster trying to defame Hinduism.