Ibrahim says: what are you saying , man ?? you mean a man and women get married so that they can play hide and seek or play make believe?? What has blue films to with a women bearing children???
Ibrahim says: the wrong is in exposing your nudity in public when such matters are to be private . If nudity was Alright in public places, you won’t have to wear any clothes to cover your private parts. The logic is , since you have been given the sixth sense , one should not be like the animal but be human and enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong.
Did you know that NO women even exposed her legs in public a few hundred years ago in the western world and only recently due to moral decadence women are showing off their body in public?
Ibrahim says : THINK man THINK ! you need to that, when you read, as and when desired simply means both parties (married couples) are engaging in it with mutual consent ! It takes two to tango and married people do not rape each other but make love to each other. The desire for companionship is a mutual thing between married couples that is why they get married in the first place.
Now ask your father, if he rapes your mother or make love to her as and when they desire?? ( so that you can be sure)
Ibrahim says : Are you saying Ramayana does not have verse 2:100 ??? or are you saying you don’t like it as such ?? or are you saying that ALL contents of Hindu scriptures MUST be on the net and then only it is VALID in Hinduism??
Go try using a search engine and see if you can find it, if not try buying a hard copy BUT your refusal to verify your own books on your own and trying to claim it is false because I must produce them on the net for you, is rather silly.
NOTE how I verified all the info you posted on my own without asking for any link from you!!!
** See when you quote the Qur’an and hadiths , I do not ask you for links, I simply use my own resources to establish its veracity. **
Ibrahim says: since you do not TRUST what I quote why are you unable to quote the correct verses as per the references I have mentioned and proof me in error??
Try and get a copy of manusmrti and quote those verse and challenge me, so that you can be sure there do not exist. As for Ramayana try VALMIKI RAMAYANA
Ibrahim says: again you are disputing Matsya Purana 70:40-60; cf. Mahabharata III:2:23. not having any knowledge of such contents and without doing your homework, that is rather silly! Just imagine I told you the verse you quoted were false without showing you there were false would you or any rational person accept it?
Ibrahim says : What are you talking man! Of course all texts for Hinduism is in Sanskrit , just as all texts in Islam is in Arabic, but what caused you to post the Qur’an and hadith in English , are you saying you know Arabic or are you able to accept the fact that they are translations for them in English and you quoted them as such?
Did I ask you to quote in Arabic, or did I ask you to show me link for your spliced texts or did I say I must verify the author of those texts first???
Ibrahim says : ** HEY Dhir!! I did not ask you for link!!! I asked you for exact reference because the reference you gave is FALSE or incomplete.** That is why I gave the example of various hadiths to show you how they may look when they are authentic hadiths .
Let me make this CLEAR to you………….
First, ALL My quotes have complete reference numbers and many of your scholars have yet to proof them false, so I will give you as much time as you need…PLEASE proof them FALSE
Second, IF you cannot provide the reference for hadiths, that is not my problem but yours BUT why are you now unable to dispute what the Qur’an says as compared to what you tried to imply in your earlier post???
Surely you must have sufficient senses to ** admit that you were wrong or else proof me wrong.** But stop this nonsense that I must show you everything on the web or else they are false.
This game only works for the ignorant not for those who claim they have knowledge.
I was sure you will not be telling us your source. Never mind, I have found it, the following is your source. As usual, typical hindu/and other religion bashing by a islamic religious thread. http://www.themodernreligion.com/index1.html
I hope others also know how true are the verses you were quoting and how intelligent you yourself are as far as religious knowledge about others is concerned. And you were name-calling me. How very religious.
"[Rama:] 'Do you keep your womenfolk pacified? Are they duly protected by you? I hope you do not repose excessive faith in them and do not confide your secrets to them.' " -- Ramayana 2:100.
For your info, in the second chapter of Ramayana, he was just born and a kid who had to go to Gurukul to study. So the question of the above comment does not arise, please give me the context in which Ramayana said so in this chapter. I don't even have to look into Ramayana to know what Chapter 2 is all about.
[quote]
Originally posted by Indian_Muslim:
Who are you bull-sh***ing here?? Muslim women in India are treated far better than Hindu women.
[/quote]
Dude,
in finanacial empowerment,
in Literacy,
in Primary enrollment,
in secondary and tertiary enrollment,
in longevity,
in marital partnerships,
in health care access,
in political freedom,
and in every other Social, economic and cultural statistic, Muslim women are faaaar disadvantaged than Muslims Men than similar gender based comparison in other religions.
This is true not only in India (against, Hindus, Christians), but also all over the world.
I am not bashing Islam here. I am simply speaking about some socio-cultural facts! Please wake up and see the reality.
I am open for discussion, if you can substantiate your argument with ** ANY scientific survey by ANY organization. **
Originally posted by Indian_Muslim:
Who are you bull-sh***ing here?? Muslim women in India are treated far better than Hindu women. <<
You MUST be a Muslim Male!!
Anyway if you want to feel Muslim Women are well treated you are welcome to do so.
Don't compare with HIndu women though. We don't sell our 14 year old girls to Arab Sheikhs or lock them up for that matter!!
And don't talk about Islam this or Islam that.
Stick to the treatment of Indian women.
Arundhati Roy Non-Muslim women wears no burqaa, agitates in public and goes to jail in India while Shabana Azmi has fatwas passed against her because she is A Muslim Women who chose to be an actress!!
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
**Indian_Muslim!!
Don't compare with HIndu women though. We don't sell our 14 year old girls to Arab Sheikhs or lock them up for that matter!!
**
[/quote]
** How would you sell them or lock them up when you burn them alive in the first place (after marriage) or when a substantial portion commit suicide or when a substantial portion are aborted before being born or when a substantial portion are killed after being born? HAHAHHA.. **
Talk about comparison.
** Hindu women are FORCED by their husbands into hard labour - like cleaning toilets, working in the construction industry and then their hard earned money is squandered by their Holy Hindu Husbands into drinking wine and booze. **
On the other hand, Muslim women are treated very kindly by their husbands, they are not burnt alive, they do not commit suicide, they are not killed after birth, nor are they aborted and they are not forced to work by their husbands. They stay comfortably and do what they like, **and if they are uneducated they take up traditional home-based business like weaving etc. Also, their hard earned money is not squandered by their Muslim husbands into drinking wine and booze. **
Ibrahim says: LOL! Dhir dear, just email that web site owner and ask who gave them that collection of hindu verses?
Just ask was it from Ibrahim or not?
and you will get your answer.
Dhir dear , DID YOU READ MY REPLY EARLIER to SUNDARAM on his request for purana links?? man you guys don’t seem to understand what you read, for I already mentioned in this forum, that you can find this verses on the web, which I myself had given to others to host.
The above web site is one of those who got it through me
Dhir, how silly of you, instead of debating what you started concerning islamic ways, you have now ended up failing to answer the questions I had asked you but trying to escape by spin doctoring the issues.
sundaram and ibrahim cool down afterall
it is fight between india and pakistan not one religen against other which may appear
on the surface. you all know how pakistan
separated from bangaldesh.
Ibrahim says : dhir dear, why not quote the second chapter since you know what it is all about? Obviously you should be able to give us a link, where all the chapters is on the web, so that I can pin point to you its location, depending on how it had been referenced therein.
The culprit in prison in Pakistan for the abduction and murder of Pearl doesn’t have to prove his innocence. The one who put the blame has to prove. So if you give a quote from Ramayana, you cannot ask us to prove it otherwise, instead you have to prove that they exist.
Nonetheless, Ibrahim you quoted Valmiki Ramayan. There is one verse-to-verse translation available on the net, and you quoted verse 2:100. However chapter two only has 54 verses. Pls. prove your point. http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ayodhya/sarga2/ayodhya_2_frame.htm
Ibrahim says: Dhir dear, when I quoted many verses from scriptures , you plainly left them aside and you focused on the Epic, which you claimed you knew very well, so I asked you to quote them. So don’t complain now after you had clearly indicated that you know your stuff.
Ibrahim says : basing on this web site It should be obvious that you got me spinning for a moment with regards to this particular URL , I mean here is a HINDU web site hosting the Ramayana and it seems to be finishing at verse 54 at kanda 2:
So I keep telling my self where did the rest of the verses go to and the URL you gave was for 2:2, NOT 2:100.
** In hindu scriptures First you have kanda,(book) then you have Sargas ( chapters) after which comes Sloka (verse )and in some cases Anustup (sub verse).**
So I went to the main page of this web site, which tells us that Kanda 2, has 119 chapters, yet they are ONLY posting 28 chapters and the rest is missing or have not been compiled. ** Which seems strange since they have SKIPPED Aranya Kanda and Yuddha kanda but managed to compile in-between kandas ( which is rather strange) for any normal compilations of scriptures in any language will go step by step , if it is in the process of being translated .
I suggest you ask the web site owner , how many Sloka and Sargas they have skipped in each Kandas and the reason as to why they have not compiled it on this web site.
My best suggestion to you is try and get a copy of the complete ramayana book in Sanskrit , if available in print and then do your own research on it.
I quote from their web site, the number of chapters in Ramayana
Dhir dear, kindly tell me what was the problem for this web site owner to host all the entire epic , once you have found the details dfrom them , thanks. This problem seems to be affecting all Hindu scriptures I wonder why?
BTW why are you not concerned with the other quotes I gave you, which are more important in scriptural terms as compared to verses from ramayana ??
In addition , pleases find out how these verse increased in number and when they may decrease in number
[quote]
Originally posted by Indian_Muslim:
** ** How would you sell them or lock them up when you burn them alive in the first place (after marriage) or when a substantial portion commit suicide or when a substantial portion are aborted before being born or when a substantial portion are killed after being born? HAHAHHA.. **
Talk about comparison.
** Hindu women are FORCED by their husbands into hard labour - like cleaning toilets, working in the construction industry and then their hard earned money is squandered by their Holy Hindu Husbands into drinking wine and booze. **
On the other hand, Muslim women are treated very kindly by their husbands, they are not burnt alive, they do not commit suicide, they are not killed after birth, nor are they aborted and they are not forced to work by their husbands. They stay comfortably and do what they like, **and if they are uneducated they take up traditional home-based business like weaving etc. Also, their hard earned money is not squandered by their Muslim husbands into drinking wine and booze. **
Talk about comparison eh???
**
[/quote]
Man.. you are sick...
how about taliban...
religion doesn't affect the way womens are treated..it is education that affects the most....
With your knowledge and insistence that even to the internet sites I quoted, you have provided the verse no. 2:100 of Ramayana, I presume you have a good knowledge of Sanskrit as you did not give any reference from where you got this verse (implying you read it in original Ramayana and translated yourself, in which case you may like to give me the page number where it exists). I have checked in the Ramayana and also with people who have put the original Sanskrit Valmiki Ramayana on the net but you were not lucky enough. One thing they pointed out is that there is no such verse in Ramayana, the other is that Ramayana’s verse cannot be quoted as 2:100 (i.e. you must mention which chapter is it and from which Kanda and then the verse number or it should read something like 2:1:100, etc.).
You may browse the complete Ramayana at http://www.hindunet.org/ramayana/valmiki.htm
and confirm where that particular verse is.
For further clarifications you may contact some experts in Sanskrit and Ramayana who you may contact through the hindunet.org. A few relevant contacts are :
In case you are not coming up with a further clarification, I presume the verse was a made up one and you are nothing but playing mischievous. That shall hold true for all other verses from Mahabharata, Manusmriti and the likes, until proven otherwise.
Ibrahim says Dhir dear , I am not the person who translated the verses I had quoted, they were done by hindu Sanskrit scholars in India and I may have some capability to translate Sanskrit verses which I won’t boast to anyone, for I need to check each word with a Sanskrit lexicon before I would dare say I had translated them accurately or even voice them. Thus all that I am quoting are coming from your own sources which I had verified to some point , that I am able to. ( just giving you a primer so that you will know what are my personal capabilities.
Ibrahim says: That could be due to what I had already conveyed to you with regards to contents on the net and the hindu nature to hide their scriptures . I had already proven to you that Hindus do splice jobs on scriptures and NEVER fully have an accurate ENTIRE scripture online. Which for the love of God I cannot understand.
Ibrahim says: as to the verse not being present, I have to laugh at it, since I have spent much time trying to find out details from hindus and they have a way of sending you around the bend.. As to the numbering, Yes, I have say , my verse reference was incomplete and I have to blame the hindu scholar who gave it to me, although I see no problem, as it refers to the chapter . This is similar to what you did when you quoted the Verse from the Qur’an, you did not give me the chapter name but just the numbers for it. In the Qur’an and for hadiths you referred to page numbers without verse numbers.
Ibrahim says: Well I had visited that web site and just to make sure there were no splice jobs on them, I visited the earlier web site you gave me , where I proofed that it was incomplete .
Now let me show you how I have analyzed this both web sites by cross referencing them both.
I went to the page you had given me earlier on this thread 2:2 at http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ayodhya/sarga2/ayodhya_2_frame.htm and by using this as a reference point I checked the same page at http://www.hindunet.org/ramayana/valmiki.htm
** I had to read every word verse by verse for this comparison as it was evidently CLEAR that there were splice jobs . IT should be obvious for anyone to see , since hindunet had 34 verses for that kanda whilst valmikiramayan.net had 54 verses for that same chapter
I was shocked and disgusted at the level of folly and deceit hindus practice in sacred scriptures. No man is allowed to edit , delete or omit any verse , when they are considered sacred and God will indeed punish these goons for doing it in folly, out of malice or unintentionally. **
Now this is the result of that comparison. ( Dhir dear I want you to be serious and compare them carefully, even the pronunciation of words are differing, which will cause great problems in Sanskrit.) I have made some verses bold that are missing in-between verses , so just look at them before you look at the additional verses in one web site that does not appear in the other.
Ibrahim says : Thus it is foolish of anyone to rely on these web sites for accurate quotes or reference points to verify any verse , hence I do not bother looking at 2:100 in the web page you had directed me! ONE MUST BE MAD TO RELY ON THEM WITH SUCH SPLICE JOBS.
** Dhir dear, Now you have problem, if you are honest you will now thrash (sue them if you can for any one who messes with scriptures is FILTH) the web masters as to what sort of folly they are creating and why they cannot have corresponding verse numbers with corresponding passages if indeed they are working on a TRUE and same manuscript. **
Ibrahim says: You presume wrong and you seem to be in haste, in not looking at all at the other verses I had quoted. Anyway it should be obvious from the above comparison that I cannot and no one can trust both the web sites unless they are compared to actual manuscripts that may be found in India. ( which is my source through the hindu scholar)
Ibrahim says: man what is wrong with you??? Seriously, haven’t I shown you that you quoted many hadiths with wrong numbers and reference points, did I say everything is false because of it??? Did you not see me, check out each verse and counter it on my own?? Did I ask for link, did I ask for Arabic texts, did I ask you who translated it??? GROW UP and check each verse and proof each verse as false or true not just wholesale denial without making an ounce of effort.
** From the above exchanges I had proven that HINDUS CANNOT BE TRUSTED WHEN IT COMES TO SCRIPTURAL QOUTES ONLINE SINCE THEY HAVE WILLFULLY , chosen to hide them or alter them or deny its existence.
never rely on fools, they are bound to misled you.
Dhir dear , be man enough to face the facts and NEVER trust your own people , since they are full of deceit and totally BLIND when it comes to sacred matters.
Regards
Ibrahim
** If clouds remain in the mind, water will fall from the eyes **
Fact of the mattter is, you have to understand Hinduism is free for all. Especially Ramayana.
Like, there are Budhhist versions of Ramayana, can you believe that?
Are there Hindu versions of Koran?
There is no central authority that approves of Translations.
What we do know of HInduism is as
1.We see it practised,
2.We Practice ourselves
3.We hear about it
4.We Read about it
in that order.
Also, Ramayana is Mythology not a ‘Scripture’ if you define Koran or Hadith as scriptures.
It is good poetry by the way. Read it and enjoy it.
Despite all your hardwork, you still have to provide a proof that such verse 2:100, as quoted by you, is from Valmiki Ramayana, and that it is not a made out verse by you. If you are ashamed of giving a link, write down the sanskrit verse from wherever you read it (from your hard copy as you claim each time we ask for a link).