An interesting debate;
if u've read it all, give us a summary....
its 45 pages in font size 10....
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*Originally posted by armughal: *
if u've read it all, give us a summary....
its 45 pages in font size 10....
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What is realy means is that Quran was partly based on the ealy writings.
For example here are the stories which were written 500 years before Quran was composed.
In sura 27:17-44 we read the story concerning Solomon, a Hoopoo bird and the Queen of Sheba. After reading the Qur'anic account of Solomon in sura 27 (on the left), it would be helpful to compare it with the account (on the right) taken from a Jewish folklore, the II Targum of Esther, which was written in the second Century A.D., nearly five hundred years before the creation of the Qur'an (Tisdall 1904:80-88; Shorrosh 1988:146-150):
Qur'an- sura 27:17-44
(aya 17) "And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts-of Jinns and men, and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks.
(aya 20) And he took a muster of the Birds;and he said: 'Why is it I see not the Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
(aya 21) I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence).
(aya 22) But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: 'I have compassed (territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with tidings true.
(aya 23) I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne...
(aya 27) (Solomon) said: 'Soon shall we see whether thou hast told the truth or lied!
(aya 28) Go thou, with this letter of mine, and deliver it to them: then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return."
(aya 29) (The queen) said: "Ye chiefs! Here is delivered to me-a letter worthy of respect.
(aya 30) It is from Solomon, and is (as follows In the name of Allah, most Gracious, Most Merciful: Be ye not arrogant against me, but come to me in submission (to the true Religion).'"
(aya 32) She said: "Ye chiefs! Advise me in (this) my affair: no affair have I decided except in your presence."
(aya 33) They said: "We are endued with strength, and given to vehement war: but the command is with thee; so consider what thou wilt command."
(aya 35) She said..."But I am going to send him a present, and (wait) to see with what (answer) return (my) ambassadors."
(aya 42) So when she arrived, (aya 44) she was asked to enter the lofty Palace: but when she saw it, she thought it was a lake of water, and she (tucked up her skirts), uncovering her legs. He said: "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass."
II Targum of Esther
"Solomon... gave orders... I will send King and armies against thee...(of) Genii [jinn] beasts of the land the birds of the air.
Just then the Red-cock (a bird), enjoying itself, could not be found; King Solomon said that they should seize it and bring it by force, and indeed he sought to kill it.
But just then, the cock appeared in the presence of the King and said, "I had seen the whole world (and) know the city and kingdom (of Sheba) which is not subject to thee, My Lord King. They are ruled by a woman called the Queen of Sheba. Then I found the fortified city in the Eastlands (Sheba) and around it are stones of gold and silver in the streets." By chance the Queen of Sheba was out in the morning worshipping the sea, the scribes prepared a letter, which was placed under the bird's wing and away it flew and (it) reached the Fort of Sheba. Seeing the letter under its wing (Sheba) opened it and read it.
"King Solomon sends to you his Salaams. Now if it please thee to come and ask after my welfare, I will set thee high above all. But if it please thee not, I will send kings and armies against thee."
The Queen of Sheba heard it, she tore her garments, and sending for her Nobles asked their advice. They knew not Solomon, but advised her to send vessels by the sea, full of beautiful ornaments and gems...also to send a letter to him.
When at last she came, Solomon sent a messenger...to meet her...Solomon, hearing she had come, arose and sat down in the palace of glass. When the Queen of Sheba saw it, she thought the glass floor was water, and so in crossing over lifted up her garments. When Solomon seeing the hair about her legs, (He) cried out to her..."
It is rather obvious, once you have read the two accounts above, where the compiler of the story of Solomon and Sheba in the Qur'an obtained his data. In content and style the Qur'anic story is almost identical with the account taken from the Jewish Targum, written in the second Century A.D., nearly five hundred years before the creation of the Qur'an. The two stories are uncannily similar; the jinns, the birds, and in particular the messenger bird, which Solomon initially could not find, but then used as a liason between himself and the Queen of Sheba, along with the letter and the glass floor, are unique to these two accounts. One will not find these parallels in the Biblical passages at all. Once again we must ask how a Jewish folklore from the second century A.D. found its way into the Qur'an?
^
maybe the Jews' God and the God who sent down the Quran are one and the same????
the story of Noah, the story of Abraham, the story of Adam, of Abel and Cain, they r all found in Quran and had existed in earlier scriptures too...
so????
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
maybe the Jews' God and the God who sent down the Quran are one and the same????
the story of Noah, the story of Abraham, the story of Adam, of Abel and Cain, they r all found in Quran and had existed in earlier scriptures too...
so????
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Then why there are differences? doesn't it have to be exactly the same.
Here is the story of Able and Cain for example.
Qur'an- sura 5:31
"Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. 'Woe is me!' said he; 'Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?' Then he became full of regrets."
Targum of Jonathan-ben-Uzziah
"Adam and Eve, sitting by the corpse, wept not knowing what to do, for they had as yet no knowledge of burial. A raven came up, took the dead body of its fellow, and having scratched at the earth, buried it thus before their eyes. Adam said, 'Let us follow the example of the raven,' so taking up Abel's body, buried it at once."
Apart from the contrast between who buried who, the two stories are otherwise uncannily similar. We can only conclude that it was from here that Muhammad, or a later compiler obtained his story. Thus we find that a Jewish fable, a myth, is repeated as historical fact in the Qur'an.
Dear sher,
Thank you for taking the trouble to explain the quranic contents from the jewish traditions. I would agree that the quran contains a lot of stuff which is similar to what we find in the bible and other jewish christian writings, however the point raised by armughal is equally interesting and I hope to get to that when I have the time.
Thanks and all the best.
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*Originally posted by Sher: *
Then why there are differences? doesn't it have to be exactly the same.
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That proves that Quran is NOT a copy of them but rather a correction of them since those books were tempered by the people of that time... thank you for pointing out and admitting yourself this truth.
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*Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
That proves that Quran is NOT a copy of them but rather a correction of them since those books were tempered by the people of that time... thank you for pointing out and admitting yourself this truth.
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The point is. dear, that we do'nt know the authenticity of any of these books written thousands of years ago. How can you prove that Quranic stories are authentic?
^
for that my dear son, u ask urself....
for us muslims it suffices that no part of it, either of historic events or scientific or any other issue has been proven wrong....
for the differences in the stories, we believe that Quran has the authentic narration since other books have suffered distortion at the hands of the followers....
Quran, as promised by Allah, remains unaltered....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
for that my dear son, u ask urself....
for us muslims it suffices that no part of it, either of historic events or scientific or any other issue has been proven wrong....
for the differences in the stories, we believe that Quran has the authentic narration since other books have suffered distortion at the hands of the followers....
Quran, as promised by Allah, remains unaltered....
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You put your argument as matter-of-fact whic it is not. you said "as promised by Allah" how can that be proven? How can you claim that book is from Allah when Allah himself is a doubtfull entity to begin with.
How can God who is beleived to be Mercifull can say Explicitly and Clearly, (Chapter of Repentance, 9:29),
"Fight against those who have been given the scripture but believe not in Allah nor the last day, and who forbid not that which Allah has forbidden by His messenger, and who follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute willingly, being brought into submission" (p. 182, English copy by Saudi Arabian scholars).
I like to mention this story about Ibrahim breaking Idols. Now point here is that this story can not be found in Bible.
In sura 21:51-71, we find the story of Abraham. In the Qur'anic account Abraham confronts his people and his father because of the many idols which they worship. After an argument between Abraham and the people, they depart and Abraham breaks the smaller idols, leaving the larger ones intact. When the people see this they call Abraham and ask if he is responsible, to which he replies that it must have been the larger idols which did the destruction. He challenges them to ask the larger idols to find out, to which they reply, "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!" (aya 65). He gives a taunting retort, and they then throw him into a fire. But in aya 69 Allah commands the fire to be cool, making it safe for Abraham, and he miraculously walks out unscathed.
There are no parallels to this story in the Bible. There is a parallel, however, in a second century book of Jewish folktales called The Midrash Rabbah. In this account Abraham breaks all the idols except the biggest one. His father and the others challenged him on this, and with a humor removed from the Qur'anic account, Abraham replies that he had given the biggest idol an ox for all the idols to eat, but because the smaller idols went ahead and ate, showing no respect, the bigger idol smashed the smaller ones. The enraged father did not believe Abraham's account, and so took him to a man named Nimrod, who simply threw him into a fire. But God made it cool for him and he walked out unscathed.
Sher, you have been doing it many places today, so this is a good time to strongly encourage you to Click Here](http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showrules.php?s=&forumid=20) and carefully read #3. If you are unsure as to what that means send me a PM. If you disagree with it then suit yourself. But make no mistake, the rule is there for a reason, whether you agree with it or not, and will be enforced.
who is this sher GUY i bet he is either an perwaizi...or....a so called modernist or simply an apostate.........i strongly urge the admin FAISAL of he reads to get rid of this guy primarily becuase he is putting a lot of effort in spreading FITNAH and tht IS NOT wat is the purpose of this FORUM....
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*Originally posted by HILAL K: *
who is this sher GUY i bet he is either an perwaizi...or....a so called modernist or simply an apostate.........i strongly urge the admin FAISAL of he reads to get rid of this guy primarily becuase he is putting a lot of effort in spreading FITNAH and tht IS NOT wat is the purpose of this FORUM....
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Hilal, I don't know what "spreading FITNA" is. If you mean that the stories I reffered to were wrong then say so. Isn't this forum for religious discussions? I don't mean to mock anybody instead I am simply discussing religion. Don't take me wrong but it sounds very prejudiced on your part not to listen to what other have to say. if you come out and look around you will see that there is a whole wide world out side of that cave you are living in. Again, I don't mean to be rude or anything, Blind faith will never get you anywhere.
u know wat sher.....if i wuz following blind faith....then i would believe in wat my parents told me or wat the prevalent traditions told me......but i always rejected them!.......infact wat i blv in is wat i discovered thru personal discovery....no one has influenced me...if i were to follow blind faith i would have never questioned the stupid...traditions prevalent in pakistan.......and by the way the errors u r tlking bout....u hv either misunderstood them or misquoted them or u just simply dont wanna blv in Islam (why dont u admit tht? rather than confuse the rest) as far as u being fondof science....ofcourse scince is essential but as far as the hoax of EVOLUTION IS CONCERNED i reccomend books by HARUN YAHYA u can even check his sites if ur being objective.....and i also recommend tlks by Dr. Zakir NAIK
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*Originally posted by Sher: *
Hilal, I don't know what "spreading FITNA" is. If you mean that the stories I reffered to were wrong then say so. Isn't this forum for religious discussions? I don't mean to mock anybody instead I am simply discussing religion. Don't take me wrong but it sounds very prejudiced on your part not to listen to what other have to say. if you come out and look around you will see that there is a whole wide world out side of that cave you are living in. Again, I don't mean to be rude or anything, Blind faith will never get you anywhere.
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As a muslim living in the West, I have some sympathy with Sher's argument. It is not a good idea putting down Sher by saying he is spreading Fitna or being disrespectful to our religion because that is censorship and as muslims we should be confident in our religion and faith to be able to discuss these issues. It is no point saying that the Quran is the word of God because it says so in the Quran! That is where we muslims fall down. I have seen countless discussions on TV where you will have a rabbi, a reverend/vicar and a mullah. The mullah always comes out either looking a fool or a fundo. This is because he is not used to discussing his religion in an open manner at the best of times, so what makes him think he will come across logically in any hostile debate.
This is all the more important in the current Islamophobic environment. After all, the Quran itself exhorts all muslims to seek knowledge. The wrong interpretations of our religion and Quranic teachings has led to the ridiculous spectacle of a teenager refusing to go to school unless she is covered head to toe in black. No teenage girl dresses like that in Pakistan/Indonesia/Gulf, so why this stance in England. It puts moderate muslims like us unnecessarily in the spotlight and constantly having to explain our religion when other faiths are far more ridiculous when analysed.
So if we have to explain ourselves as muslims and that is the way of the world, isn't it better to discuss these issues openly amongst ourselves, reach a consensus, then take it into the public arena.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by alooparatha: *
As a muslim living in the West, I have some sympathy with Sher's argument. It is not a good idea putting down Sher by saying he is spreading Fitna or being disrespectful to our religion because that is censorship and as muslims we should be confident in our religion and faith to be able to discuss these issues. It is no point saying that the Quran is the word of God because it says so in the Quran! That is where we muslims fall down. I have seen countless discussions on TV where you will have a rabbi, a reverend/vicar and a mullah. The mullah always comes out either looking a fool or a fundo. This is because he is not used to discussing his religion in an open manner at the best of times, so what makes him think he will come across logically in any hostile debate.
This is all the more important in the current Islamophobic environment. After all, the Quran itself exhorts all muslims to seek knowledge. The wrong interpretations of our religion and Quranic teachings has led to the ridiculous spectacle of a teenager refusing to go to school unless she is covered head to toe in black. No teenage girl dresses like that in Pakistan/Indonesia/Gulf, so why this stance in England. It puts moderate muslims like us unnecessarily in the spotlight and constantly having to explain our religion when other faiths are far more ridiculous when analysed.
So if we have to explain ourselves as muslims and that is the way of the world, isn't it better to discuss these issues openly amongst ourselves, reach a consensus, then take it into the public arena.
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Nice meeting you, mate,, I finaly met a good muslim. some of the blokes in this forum are hellbent on deforming islam. there is only one word for them,, wankers.
listen ms/mr alooparatha....the mullah acts like an idiot becuz he shuoldnt be invited in the first place......the knowledgeable ppl shuold be......infact...the mullah is invited becuz firstly he doesnt spk english secondly they know tht mullah hasnt got any knowledge!!!!!!!!!
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*Originally posted by HILAL K: *
listen ms/mr alooparatha....the mullah acts like an idiot becuz he shuoldnt be invited in the first place......the knowledgeable ppl shuold be......infact...the mullah is invited becuz firstly he doesnt spk english secondly they know tht mullah hasnt got any knowledge!!!!!!!!!
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It seems that mullah does think that he knows it all other wise he shloudn't accept the invitation. that is even more dangrous.
hey sher from the way u tlk i thought its u who wanks 24/7 humm....
r u tryin to put blame on those who dont???? as it is ur habit to do so
"yehan forum mein to bohat bak bak ker rahay ho real life mein muslimoon key samnay tumharee boltee band ho jatee ho gee"