What is the difference between an Ahmadi and Muslims?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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This thread has gone on for four pages and is now resembling a cut-paste galore and merely repetitive arguments more than anything else. Plus there are members who are wasting little time in posting all kinds of insults against each other's faith. That goes squarely against the rules of Religion Forum. For the sake of open discussion and the fact that some of you have demanded an avenue to discuss this topic, the thread remained open. However, now all of you better wind up your arguments.

This thread will remain open for an additional 24 hours. Make up your final posts. Do not try to prolong the discussion. After this thread is closed, any additional attempts to restart this same discussion will be closed rightaway and those who continue to violate the rules of Religion Forum may be awarded warning points that can lead to their banning from Gupshup.

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Faisal, I was gonna write the same message lekin I don;t know how to do that red font thingie. :k:

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by abuQasim: *

All i know is that both are called "zard" in translations made by non-ahmedi muslims and they havent differentiated between them.
[/QUOTE]

Not really... as far as the Arabic goes...

The colour mentioned in the first hadith is mumasir which according to the lexicon Al Nihaya is a colour that has just a touch or very little yellow in it - sufra khafifa - so even the translation "light yellow" might be too strong... but we'll leave it at that...

The second hadith says mu'asfar which is yellow proper...

Even a quick glance will show these two colours to be distinctly different...

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bhai mere, aqal karo, khuda ka naam lo… Look at the above post carefully and tell me what is your ‘defender of Ilsam’ trying to state here. That Quran is wrong too?

Because it is written in quran that

**“Keep in mind when God will say to Jesus, son of Mary: Didst thou say to people: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? - and he will answer, Holy art Thou, I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou who art the Knower of hidden things. I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things.” **(5:117-8)

The verse clearly proves that:

The corruption of Christian doctrine took place after the death of Hadhrat Jesusas. If Hadhrat Jesusas is still alive, as you and your mullah and all rest of ‘likes’ you believe, then Christianity must still be pure. So, is Ilyaas suggesting that Christianity is still pure?

But Quran is refuting it.

Secondly, if according to your belief, the same Hadhrat Jesusas will appear a second time in this world, then wouldn’t he become aware that Christians had now taken his mother as Divine, and could not, therefore plead ignorance in front of God’s judgment seat?

tum logon nay to hud kardi hai. Mirza Sahib:as: ko jhoota banatay banatay (Na’uzobillah) Quran, Rasool or Allah tak nahee chora.

Chapter : 6 (Al-An`am) Verse : 22 [Short Commentary]

And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah or treat His Signs as lies? Surely the unjust shall not prosper.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *

Secondly, if according to your belief, the same Hadhrat Jesusas will appear a second time in this world, then wouldn't he become aware that Christians had now taken his mother as Divine, and could not, therefore plead ignorance in front of God's judgment seat?
[/quote]

You obviously can't read as well... Jesus isn't being asked whether he "knew" what the people did in his absence (i.e. take him and his mother as gods), but rather whether he had "told" them to do such a thing... so he's not pleading ignorance, he's saying "I never told them to do that"... see the difference?? (I doubt it!)... so stop playing games with the Qur'an to try and lend some credibility to a charlatan prophet...

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You two obviously don't understand how to wind up your arguments with concluding remarks.

And when the thread is closed someone will start complaining that mods are unreasonable and close discussions abruptly and the other will say the mods are 'protecting' the ahmadis and don't allow "us" to answer their "fitna" and a third one will take the cake and say that the mods "promote' ahmadis.

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Chalna sahib, kidhr chal dye… aap to aisay bhagay hain article post kar kay keh khabar hi koi nahee… C’mon defend your article and your so-called ‘defender of Islam’ through Quran and Hadith.

Ofcourse, you won’t be able to. Because Allah, Rasool :saw:, Quran and Hadith all are standing in support of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian:as: Massih Ma’ud and Mehdi Ma’ud.

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I think you’ll find that quite the opposite is true…

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I think it is a MUST to conclude that "yes" it is correct to say that AHMADIS are MUSLIMS. Not a creed, a gender, a religion or anything else away from Islam, but THE MERE EXISTENCE OF ISLAM. Thanks to Allah (saw).

Brothers and Sisters, nobody calling anybody else can mean anything, so sit tight and accept Ahmadis as Muslims, because THEY ARE MUSLIMS. They will not cease their existence. They believe in all that is pure and excellent of Islam and will do so forever til their last breath.

The rest of you that do not like this ISLAM can keep praying to Allah and ask him to change things for your benefit of the doubt or you can change religions if you may choose to do so. Stop harrassing those that love Allah and love his message and wish to continue to live under the protected banner called "ISLAM". The true Islam.

Jazak Allah...

TOPIC IS CLOSED.........

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Muslims are Muslims

Ahmedis are non Muslims .

JazakAllah

This has been discussed a 1000 times......

Topic closed.

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I'll wrap it up by saying what Mirza Sahib (as) said, that is love of Allah annnd after that love of the holy prophet (pbuh) is our religion, if that is kufr then we ahmadis are the biggest kafirs.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by abuQasim: *
I'll wrap it up by saying what Mirza Sahib (as) said, that is love of Allah annnd after that love of the holy prophet (pbuh) is our religion, if that is kufr then we ahmadis are the biggest kafirs.
[/QUOTE]

I couldn't have said it any better my friend.

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Re: Re: What is the difference between an Ahmadi and Muslims?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
We are Musalmans.
[/quote]
Amazed to see thins as the opening sentence.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
We believe in the One God without a partner and in the Kalima, La Illah Ill-Allah.
[/quote]
Who taught you this Kalima?
And is that you learnt or are you hiding s'thing from us?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
We believe in the Book of God, the Quran, in His Messenger Muhammad (peace on him and God's blessings) the Khatam Al-Anbiya.
[/quote]
Elaborate this please.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
We believe in angels, the resurrection, hell and paradise. We observe the prescribed prayers and the fast. We turn to the Qibla for prayers and forbid ourselves what is forbidden by God and His Prophet and permit ourselves what is permitted.
[/quote]
Which prophet are you reffering to here? Becuase you have invented one of your own as well.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by zakiahmed: **
We add not a thing to the Sharia, nor subtract any thing from it. The Sharia is above change. Whatever has come down to us from the Holy Prophet (on whom peace and God's blessings), all that we accept, whether we understand or not and whether we can unravel its secrets and real meaning or not. We are believers with the Grace of God, and strict monotheist Muslims. (Nur al-Haq I, pg. 5)
[/quote]
Who gave you the right to **add things into sharia? I'm sorry but the first question should have been: Define sharia?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
We believe that God exists; to subscribe to a belief in His existence is to affirm the most important truth; it is not to follow an illusion or superstition.

We believe that God is One. He has no partner here nor in Heaven. Everything else is His creation, dependent on His help and sustenance. He is withtout son or daughter or father or mother or wife or brothers, Unique in His Oneness and in His Individuality.

We believe that God is Holy, free from all defects and full of all perfections. No imperfection which may be found in Him, and no perfection which may not be found in Him. His power is unlimited. So is His Knowledge. He encompasses everything and there is nothing which encompasses Him. He is the First and the Last,
[/quote]
Who told you he is the first and the LAST Did you prophet had a 'dream' about it?

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by zakiahmed: **
**God created light for the eye and bread for for hunger. He created light and bread not because He was in need of them but because man was in need of them. The angels only manifest the Will and Wisdom of God.
[/quote]
Quote the refference which you have used to write the bold part.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
They are like a mine the stone of which is the more valuable the deeper you dig. Indeed, a mine is nothing compared with revelation. A mine can be exhausted, but not the wisdom of revelation. A revelation is like a sea with a scented surface and a bed strewn with the most precious pearls. Those, who turn to the surface, enjoy the fragrance of the surface, and those, who dive deep, find the pearls below.
[/quote]
I'm sorry no offence but is this s'thing your prophet had in dream? I mean the surfing/deep diving/mine blassting and everything or some of your shcolars came up with it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
Revelation is of many kinds.
[/quote]
Evidence? for this statement which should cover the things you said ahead of this sentence.

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Before continuing, do you people also believe in the revealed books?

Since all the previous scriptures have the mentioning of the coming prophets. Do you think that part is missing in the Quran?

If a propthet can have a child who is a disbeliever then how come those who follow prophet are assured of the fact that they’ll become spiritual preceptor for generations?

Are you reffering to Mirza here? Can you please use names?

Can you elaborate on what the ‘follow’ me is? I mean if we add s’thing into the sharia would we be still following Muhammad [s]?

So if I’m not wrong one of your belief is that God created world and than sat aside, right?

So according to your statement God only loves those whom he loves, right?
Question 2 here is that who told you what the ‘laws of God’ are. Please use evidence for that statement.

[QUOTE]
**Originally posted by zakiahmed: **

evidence?

Who wrote this Tafsir?

okay so for your belives you should be using sharia. shouldnt you?

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A few more interesting things to be noted are:
Mirza Gulam Ahmed Qadiyaani, Syed Mohammed Jaunpuri, Wallace Fard Muhammad, Elijah Poole (Muhammed), Isa Abdullah, Abdullah Al-Harari Al-Habashi claimed to be the promissed Massiah. Why should one beileve in Mirza sahib alone. Whats wrong with rest of the people?

S'thing which Ahmedies are not comfy to share:
Mirza sahib said
"I do not claim that I am the same Mahdi who will come according to (words of Hadith) 'from the son of Fatima and from my progeny' etc." (Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya V, Roohani Khazain vol.21 p.356)

"We admit this that several Mahdis may have come before and possibly will come in future as well and probably someone by the name of Imam Muhammad may also appear." (Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.379)

"It is possible and quite possible that at some time in future such Messiah may appear upon whom the literal words of Hadith (of Holy Prophet) fit, because this humble self has not come with the Reign and Command of this world, but with poverty and humility." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol 3 p.197)

It is possible that in future no Messiah may come. It is possible 10,000 more Messiah may come and one of them may descend in Damascus." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol 3 p.251)

"The basis for our claims is not Hadith but Quran and that Wahi which comes to me. Yes, in support we also present those Hadith which are according to Quran and DO NOT CONTRADICT MY WAHI. Rest of the Hadith, I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER." (Roohani Khazain vol.19 p.140)

"I know that anything that oppose Quran is lie, apostacy, and heresy, thus how can I claim prophethood when I am a Muslim?" (Hamamatul Bushra, Roohani Khazain vol. 7 p. 297)

"O people! ... Do not be an enemy of Quran and after Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, do not initiate the system of new prophetic revelation. Have some shame from Allah, in front of whom you would appear." (Asmani Faisla, Roohani Khazain vol.4 p. 335)

some more interesting saying of Mirza sahib
"God thought that in this era that such a time has come when a Grand Reformer is needed so God's Seal did this job that Holy Prophet SAAW's follower reached to such a status that from one aspect he was a Ummati and from other Prophet, because Allah made Holy Prophet SAAW the Bearer of Seal, that is He was given the Seal to make perfection..." (Haqeeqatul Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol. 22 p. 99-100)

  • in explaination to Surah Al Ahzab 33.40* "The meaning of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen is this that without His Seal nobody's Prophethood can be verified. When the Seal is affixed, then that paper is authenticated and valid." (Malfoozat-e-Ahmadiyya vol.5 p.290)

"Definitely our opponent Molvi Sahebaan have made grave mistake in understanding the meaning of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, He is Khatam-un-Nabiyeen but in the sense that His person is a Seal of approval for Prophets." (AlFazl Qadian dated 8th December 1915)

"We do not deny that Holy Prophet SAAW is Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, but the meaning of Khatam is not what the majority of Muslims understand and which is against the Mighty Glory of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAAW that He had deprived His ummah from the Bounty of Prophethood." (AlFazl Qadian dated 22 Sept 1939)

So according to Mriza sahib all who thought that seal is the last were wrong regardless of who they were. And Mirza sahib was the 'sort of' first person who get to know the real meaning

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*wise saying of Mrza Sahib *
"And Allah bestowed upon me the bounty of the Holy Prophet and made it perfect, and he drew towards me the kindness and generosity of that merciful Prophet, so much so that my entity became his entity. Thus he who joins my Jamaat really becomes one of the Sahaba of my Chief who was better then all the Prophets. It is not hidden from those with the ability to think that this is what the words "others of them" mean. The person who differentiates between me and Mustafa (i.e. Holy Prophet pbuh) has neither seen me nor recognised me". (Khutbah-e-Ilhamiah, Roohani Khazain, vol.16, pp.258-259)

"The truth is that the spirituality of the (reincarnated) Holy Prophet at the end of the 6th millennium (i.e. these days in the form of Mirza), is much more stronger, more complete and forceful than in those early years, rather it is like the 14th (full moon) night". (Khutbah-e-Ilhamiyah, Roohani Khazain, vol.16, pp. 271-272)

"The spirituality of our Holy Prophet (SAW) was conceived in 5th thousand (ie Makki birth) with its precise attributes and that period was not the the climax of his spirituality's development. It was rather the first step to the highest pinnacle of its perfection. Thereafter this spirituality manifested itself in its full glamour during the 6th thousand (his rebirth in Qadian) at the present time". (Mirza in Khutba-e-llhamiyah, Roohani Khazain, Vol.16, p.266)

** praise Mirza sabib **
Poetry recited in the presence of Mirza, who had the following section written on a wall hanging:

"Muhammad has descended again amongst us
and is greater in his glory than before
He who wants to see Muhammad in perfection
Should look at Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian."

(Poetry by Qazi Zahoor Ahmad Akmal Qadiani, recited in the presence of Mirza Qadiani, printed in Qadiani Newspaper Paigham-us Sulh dated 14th March 1916)

"Thus does any doubt remain that God has sent Muhammad (pbuh) again in Qadian to fulfil his promise? (Kalimat alFasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad, Review of Religions p.105, No.3, vol.14)

"The entity of the promised Masih (Mirza), in the sight of Allah is the entity of the Holy Prophet (SAW). In other words, in the records of Allah there is no duality or difference between the promised Masih and the Holy Prophet (SAW). Rather they both share the same eminence, the same rank, the same status and the same name. Although verbally they are two, yet in reality they are one and the same". (Al-Fazl, Qadian, vol.3, No.37, dated 16th September 1915, as cited in Qadiani Mazhab page 207, 9th edition, Lahore)

"Maseeh Mowood is not a seperate thing from Holy Prophet pbuh, but it is He Himself who has come again in this world in Buroozi form..... therefore is there any doubt that God has sent Holy Prophet again in Qadian?" (Kalimat Alfasl p.104-105, Review of Religions Qadian March 1915)

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who does not believe in Mirza sahib ::
"Except for the CHILDREN OF PROSTITUTE, whose hearts have been sealed by God, everyone else believes in me and has accepted me." (Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam, Roohani Khazain vol.5 p.547)

"God has revealed to me that anyone to whom my message has reached and he has not accepted me , he is not a muslim." (Letter of Mirza to Dr. Abdul Hakeem Khan Patialvi)

"I have God's inspiration that he who does not follow you and will not enter your Ba'ith and remain your opponent, he is disobedient of God and His Prophet, Hellish." (Advertisement in M'ayaar-ul-Akhyar by Mirza Ghulam p.8)

"Thus remember as God has informed me, it is forbidden and absolutely forbidden to pray behind any disbeliever and hesitant; but is should be that your imam should be one of you." (Arbaeen No 3, Roohani Khazain vol.17 p.417 footnote)

Some one asked a question and Mirza has replied to it. Both are mentioned in his book, Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi. I quote:
"Question: Huzoor-e-aali has mentioned in thousands of places that it is not at all right to call KAFIR a Kalima-go (one who recites a Kalima) and an Ahle-Qibla. It is quite obvious that except those Momineen who become Kafir by rejecting you, just by not accepting you no one becomes a Kafir. But you write to Abdul Hakeem Khan that anyone who has received my message and he has not accepted me, he is not Muslim. There is contradiction between this statement and the statements in previous books. Earlier in Tiryaq-ul-Quloob etc you had mentioned that no one becomes Kafir by not accepting you and now you are writing that by rejecting me he becomes a Kafir.
Answer: [Pearls of Mirza sahib as his followers would say] This is strange that you consider the person who rejects me and the person who calls me Kafir as two different persons, whereas in the eyes of God he is the same type; because he who does not accept me is because he considers me a fabricator.... apart from this, he who does not accept me, he does not believe in God and His Prophet as well, because there is God's and his Prophet's prophecy regarding me" (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol.22 p.167)

"It is our obligation that we do not consider non-ahmadis as muslims and do not pray behind them, because for us they have rejected one prophet (Mirza Ghulam) of God. This is a religious matter and no one has any right to do anything in it." (Anwar-e-Khilafat, by Mirza Mahmood, Khalifa 2, p.90)

"All muslims who are not included in the initiation of Maseeh Mowood, even if they have not heard the name of Maseeh Mowood, they are Kafir and out of the fold of Islam. I admit that these are my beliefs." (Aina-e-Sadaqat, by Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.35)

Question: "Is it permitted to say May God Bless the departed soul, forgive him and send him to Paradise for a person who was not included in Ahmadiyyat?"
*Answer: *"The KUFR of non-Ahmadis is proven by evident signs and it is not permitted to ask for forgiveness for non-believers (KUFFAR)." (Al-Fazl Qadian vol.8, No. 59, 7th Feb 1921)

"Non-Ahmadis are the disbelievers therefore their funeral prayers should not be offered, but if an infant of non-ahmadi dies, why should we not pray his funaral prayer, he is not a disbeliever of Maseeh Mowood? I ask the inquirer, that if this is true than why don't we offer funeral prayer of a Hindu or a Christian child? How many people offer their funeral prayer?" (Anwar-e-Khilafat, Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.93)

"Our prayers are separate from Non-ahmadis, it is forbidden to give our girls to them, we are stopped to offer their funeral prayers. Now what is left that we can participate with them? There are only two kinds of relations - religious and worldly. For religious relations, it is the gathering for prayers and for worldly relations, it is the marriage and both are forbidden for us." (Mirza Basheer Ahmad s/o Mirza Ghulam, Kalimat alFasl p.169)

"The point is now quite clear. If it is 'Kufr' (infidelity) to deny the Gracious Prophet (Muhammad pbuh), it must also be 'Kufr' to deny the Promised Messiah, because the Promised Messiah is in no way a separate being from the Gracious Prophet; rather he is the same (Muhammad incarnate). If anyone is not deemed a Kafir for denying the Promised Messiah, then anyone else who denies the Gracious Prophet also cannot be considered a Kafir. How is it possible that denying him in his first birth as Prophet should be regarded as Kufr, but denying him in his (reincarnated) second birth as prophet should not be regarded as Kufr, when, as claimed by the Promised Messiah, his (Mirza's birth as Muhammad incarnate) spiritual attainment is stronger, complete and severe." (Kalimatul Fasl, pages 146-147, as cited in the Review of Religions, dated March-April 1915)

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And how can there be a propther without prophicies

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And some more reading for those who are NON MUSLIMS in the eyes of the Ahmediya followers

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i wonder why the ahmadis in this forum, even after being told repeatedly that ahmadis r not muslims, and shown clear proofs of how that impostor ghulam ahmed made up his stories of being prophet/messiah/maryam/isa/god/whatever they still think that they have proven their faith....
the world knows, anyone who deals with religions ofcourse, that ahmadis r not muslims, all muslims recognize the fact, yet they wish to keep up their vain efforts....
an to top that, they have been shown clearly to have links with jews, with their centres located in israel as well....