Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?
I appreciate that Ahmadis try their level best to defend their leader, but I haven't yet come across ONE single Ahmadi in my whole life, who truly follows the fashion (appearance) of their leaders. True and passionate followers also try to copy the appearance of their leaders i.e. beard and cap. Instead people of Tableeghi jamaat resemble more to Mirza sahab and the other khalifas because of keeping beard and topi. Amazing isn't it ?
Carry on.
May be you have misinterpreted me... I was not making an argument for or against Qadianiat... I was only narrating an argument presented by Qadianis & its refutation by the Ulema...
No brother,
I have just added few cents into ur comment!!! nothing in favor or against ur comment
Heres a very simple answer to you all. If you guys dont get this, you guys have some serious problems.
Muslim Umma believes there is an Imam Mehdi AS yet to come. Ahmadis believe exactly the same. Muslim Umma also believe that the coming Imam Mehdi must be the one guided by Allah. Ahmadis also believe the same. Guided by Allah Himself and not to call Him Prophet of Allah is not acceptable, if He's from Allah, Hes prophet. ( with that comes the question of Khatm e naboowat which is a different topic so i'd not discuss it here )
Hazrat Isa AS as other Muslims believe was raised up to heaven, and when he AS comes back, He AS will not bring new law BUT follow the law(sharia) of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. In other words, Prophet coming after Prophet Muhammad PBUH is possible ( according to other Muslims ). When Ahmadi Muslims say the same thing, they are kafir and out of the fold of islam but when other Muslims say this , everyone agrees with them.
One more thing to keep in mind everyone is that throughout the history of Islam, if anyone claimed to be send by Allah and claims himself to be prophet, Allah says in Quran that if He's an imposter, He will cut his throat. We have seen such instances happening in the middle east when someone claimed to be Imam Mehdi and within few days , the govt of Saudi arabia got him killed. If He was sent by Allah the almighty, He would have been saved. What do you see now? Ahmadiyya movement in Islam flourishing around the world. Millions of people around the world do ba'it per year. You think you people are the first one to be against Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS?.. wrong. There have been people before you, people in His times , and there will be people like you who will continue to spread wrong information without any knowledge and without the intention of getting the info right.
Ahmadi people's religion is the religion of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS has always said in his books that whatever He is, is because of Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
For goodness sake, read His books with neutral mind and find out the truth. You people are only expert in taking things out of context and publishing it all over the internet. Let me tell you one revelation of Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS. He once said something like ( dont have the exact wording in front of me right now ) " Allah will make 2 to 4 ". When asked what that meant he said he doesnt know. If a person whose making stuff up to misguide the ummah, He must know what hes talking about. In this case He had no idea what Allah said to him. He received it from Allah and conveyed to the people.
In the 'faith' (note i didnt say 'religion' ) of ahmadiyya jamaat, they believe that Allah used to speak to people who were dear to Him, He still speaks to people who are dear to Him, and He will continue to speak to people who loves Him.
as far as Ahmadis considering Muslims non-muslims.. I ask you, if there was an Imam Mehdi RIGHT NOW, and according to you He seems to be the right one, you did bait on him.. what about the people who did not do bait?.. according to you, wat should they be called?
Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?
To be called a 'Muslim' one should follow 5 pillars of Islam. Until and unless you make an addition to it saying that you also have to believe that He SAW was the "last" ( as in no non-baring prophet can come after Him SAW) prophet, then by all means consider Ahmadis non-muslims. But you cant do so because in one of the pillar a person is required to say kalima shahadah which testify that a person believe that there is none worthy of worship but Allah and Prophet Muhammad SAW is His messenger.
Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?
Mr. Popat I have a few questions for you because it was not clear to me through your Post & Ill appreciate if you can answer it precisely as my intention is only to get more knowledge not to form an opinion
Do Qadianis Believe Jesus (PBUH) was taken Alive to the heavens by Allah & is still Alive & will return near the end times
Do Qadianis believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadian to be the Messiah or Imam Mehdi ?
Finally I would invite you to listen to these logical reasonings refuting your beliefs with an open mind…
http://www.tanzeemarchive.org/tanzeemeislami/Misc/Radd-e-Qadyaniyyet%20Ki%20Aqli%20Daleel.ra
Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?
1) Jesus AS died a natural death. He AS was not taken up to the heavens as per ur belief. In the event of Meraj shareef, Prophet Muhammad PBUH saw Jesus AS in the heavens along with other prophets who were dead. We know very well that deaths people do not accompany alives.
In Qur'an, Allah actually foretold the whole conversation between Him and prophet Jesus AS. Allah will ask him that did you tell your nation to consider you as my son and do shirq? , in reply Jesus AS will say that as long as I was amongst them, I've only guided them to the right path. >> point to be noted now: why would Allah have this conversation with Him when Allah's intention is to send Him back down to guide his nation?
In many verses in Qur'an , Allah addressed Jesus AS as the "prophet to bani israel" , if He ever returns , will naozubillah Qur'an needs to be changed up a bit? since when he returns, He'll be following the shariah of Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
These are some of the many questions which requires one to think, Islam is not a religion to blindly follow. The more we question, the more answers we get and in returns the more our imaan get strong.
2) He is considered Masih e maood and Mahdi. You will now say that Ahmadis believe that Jesus AS died but why did He claimed to be Masih. Well, the answer that i have might not be enough to answer your this query, but im sure some other knowledgeable Ahmadi will be able to answer you this question, because i know theres an answer to this, which im not aware of. I seriously have no religious background, i have learnt some of the pointers to defend wat i believe in.
Lastly, Please refrain from calling Ahmadis Qadiyanis. It is considered offensive. Please refer to them as Ahmadis if not Ahmadi Muslims. Thanks.
I will no thave enough time to listen to the links u posted. How about u take some of the arguments, put it over here, and i'll see if my knowledge permits me to answer. Thanks.
1) I will no have enough time to listen to the links u posted. How about u take some of the arguments, put it over here, and i'll see if my knowledge permits me to answer. Thanks.
Honestly, I would be somewhat reluctant to do that as It was not my intention to have a 'Munazra' on this topic. As had been mentioned by someone in an earlier post from a theological perspective its not an 'open problem' , the debate discussions & argumentation on this topic has already been completed more then 3 decades ago & from a doctrinal perspective there remains no ambiguity in this matter. Secondly, even if a debate on this topic still has some merit...,from your own admission we would be the least qualified to be part of this debate..., matters of such doctrinal sensitivity should be debated amongst the experts.
My message was for those Ahmedis that are prepared / willing to reflect & introspect on their beliefs with an open mind, for such an audience second hand knowledge would be far less useful & less effective in comparison to accessing information directly from the sources mentioned.
For the convenience of those with limited time I would summarize what was mentioned in links....
The point from which the deviation in the Ahmedi faith starts & the belief that removes Ahmediya Faith out of the fold of Islam is not believing in Khatam-e-Nabowat
This matter has two perspective..., a doctrinal/theological/legal perspective & a rational perspective.
There have been many experts of Fiqah , theologicans & Ulemma that have unambiguously proven from the references of Quran & Sahi Hadith..., that believe in the possiblity of having another person to be selected for Prophethood after Hazrat Muhammad PBUH is doctrinally incompatible with islam as had been proven during the Ahmediya hearings of National Assembly... in 1974 that concluded in the constitutional bill declaring Ahmediya faith as a non-muslim minority.
Amongst the many Hadidths & Quranic Ayat for this I will mention two
Surah-Al-Ahzab Ayat 40
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets(Khatem-on-Nabeein): and Allah has full knowledge of all things."
Surah-Al-Anam Ayat 93
"
And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allah, or says: "I have received inspiration," whereas he is not inspired in anything; and who says, "I will reveal the like of what Allah has revealed." And if you could but see when the Zalimun are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): "Deliver your souls! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allah other than the truth. And you used to reject His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) with disrespect! "
This implies that there can be no Prophets after our Holy Prophet anybody making a claim of prophethood after him is making a false claim.
& making a false claim to receiving Wahi/revelation from Allah & those who believe in such a claimaint, not only removes them out of the fold of Islam but this also shows that this is a very big sin.
Like I said there are many other hadiths & Quranic Ayats that prove this from a doctrinal perspective... one Alim that has done considerable research on this topic from this perspective is Maulana Anwar Shah Kashmiri those interested in understanding this topic in greater detail may refer to his work.
The second is a rational perspective of Khatam-e-Nabowat, the links that I had sent were discussing the issue from this perspective; as I had mentioned my intention was not a Munazra... had it been I would have posted links to doctrinal arguments against Ahmediya faith as from a legal perspective those are the only arguments that matter.
Understanding the flaw in non believing in Khatam-e-Naboowat from a rational perspective requires us to understand all the nuances of the word 'Khatam'
It has two meaning
1) Khatam means the end of something,termination : from a doctrinal perspective this meaning is sufficient to eradicate the possibility of any Nabowat after our Holy Prophet PBUH
2) Khatam also means completion/conclusion/perfected : this meaning helps explain the rational perspective of Khatam-e-Nabowat. It means that Nabowat..., Allah's Hidayat was perfected on our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH...,
Please consider the following
1) Allah's Hidayat/Noor/Nabowat was perfected & reached its climax in the person of our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH in the form of Quran
2) The integrity of Quran is protected from all concoctions, fabrications till eternity
3) Deen has been perfected/culminated on our Holy Prophet
4) The greatness of Humanity has been perfected in the person of our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH meaning there can be no greater human being after our Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH
5) The Risalat of our Holy prophet PBUH is global/eternal for all people till Qayamat & not limited to any time-space constraints.
If one believes in all of the above then there remains no rational basis for the continuation of institutaion of Nabowat.
Either i am having a hard time explaining or something else is the problem.
[quote]
1) Khatam means the end of something,termination : from a doctrinal perspective this meaning is sufficient to eradicate the possibility of any Nabowat after our Holy Prophet PBUH
2) Khatam also means completion/conclusion/perfected : this meaning helps explain the rational perspective of Khatam-e-Nabowat. It means that Nabowat..., Allah's Hidayat was perfected on our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH...,
[/quote]
What you said here, Ahmadi People completely agrees with it. No other shariyat can come after the shariat of prophet Muhammad PBUH. With His risaalat, the prophethood was completed. Though, the possibility of Allah talking to His loved ones has not been terminated after Prophet Muhammad PBUH. There is possibility of non-law baring prophets.
[quote]
1) Allah's Hidayat/Noor/Nabowat was perfected & reached its climax in the person of our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH in the form of Quran
2) The integrity of Quran is protected from all concoctions, fabrications till eternity
3) Deen has been perfected/culminated on our Holy Prophet
4) The greatness of Humanity has been perfected in the person of our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH meaning there can be no greater human being after our Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH
5) The Risalat of our Holy prophet PBUH is global/eternal for all people till Qayamat & not limited to any time-space constraints.
[/quote]
I couldnt have said it any better than that. I agree 100%
It is alleged that Ahmadies do not believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad SAW to be Khataman nabiyeen. This is based on a gross misrepresentation of the Ahmadiyya views and I would like to present the following to remove this misunderstanding :
At the very outset I would like to state categorically that Ahmadies believe the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) to be Khataman nabiyeen - Seal of the Prophets, as has been stated in the Holy Quran and it is an awful fabrication against the Ahmadies that they do not believe in the doctrine of khatm e naboowat. The difference is only in interpretation of the title and not in the title itself.
The Promised Messiah and Mahdi, the Holy Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam (peace be upon him) says:
"I swear by the glory of God and His Majesty that I am of the faithful, a Muslim and I believe in Allah, the High, in His Books, and in His Messengers and in His Angels and in Life after death. And I believe that our Prophet Muhammad the Elect of God (peace of Allah be on him and His blessings) is the most eminent of the prophets and the Seal of Apostles."
Many Muslims believe that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be on him) is the last prophet and that no prophet can come after him. I shall first state and examine the arguments that are given in support of this belief, then show that this is true only in a certain sense...
In Qur'an it is said : "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and Khataman Nabiyyeen--The Seal of the Prophets." (33:41)
The real meaning of khatam is a seal , and the phrase should be interpreted in the light of this meaning. it is wrong to interpret the word khatam in this verse to mean the last or the end. Here, the word Khatam denotes the consummation and completion of a thing, which further explains by the words, authenticity, perfection and validity. When a seal is put to a letter it becomes authentic and complete. The seal may be put in the end or in the beginning. Therefore, khataman nabiyeen would mean the truest and the most perfect of prophets and not the last in point of time. It refers to his status and place among the prophets and not to the time of his advent.
Lets also examin the word 'khatam' in the light of other instances.
Prophet Muhammad PBUH has called His uncle "khatamul muhajireen" but it doesnt mean that Hazrat Abbas AS was the last muhajir (refugee) of the whole muslim world.
Similarly, Hazrat Ali RA is also called "khamatul aulya " it doesnt mean He AS was the last saint, but it meant the perfect saint.
there has been many other instances too, for example in arabic when a poet is just extraordinary, he's given the title of 'khatamush shu'ara" .. does not mean the last but the best, as in no other can take his place.
Even if for sometime I believe your interpretation of the word "khatam" meaning no other prophet can come after Him. What credit does it give to Prophet Muhammad to be called the last in the line?..
To be the tail of a line, therefore, is no credit or distinction. Even if we take the phrase khataman nabiyeen to mean the last of the prophets; we must interpret it as meaning that he is the last in the sense that he has attained a degree of perfection beyond which it is impossible for anyone to go. He has exhausted all the degrees of perfection and none can ever excel or supersede him. He is the Head of the prophets and not the tail.
I will write the rest of it on this issue a little later. I will also try to present to you some hadith which uses the word khatam to refer prophet Muhammad PBUH.
Notice that, Ahmadi people do not disregard any of the hadith and any of the verse of Qur'an , we read the same Qur'an and takes the same meaning as it should be taken. JazakAllah for having a healthy debate and not mocking the founder of Ahmadiyya movement. ( though you have but i suggest you keep your opinions to yourself and not call anyone false without enough knowledge ).
Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?
Its interesting that you accept the premise but not the conclusion...
If you agree in the culmination/perfection of Hidaya.... then there remains no rational justification for the continuance of the institution of Nabowat..... & Wahi
Now.., I would reiterate I consider myself least qualified to debate this issue from a doctrinal perspective... neither I have extensive Knowledge of Hadith nor the Holy Quran...
So If you want to debate this issue further I would route you to sources that have the prerequisite knowledge to debate on doctrine.
Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?
I have no intention of debating this issue any further. As said in Qur'an.. there are signs for people who uses their intellect.
There will continue to be good people , as always have..who will reach such status in their spiritual life that Allah will speak to them. BUT, Islam has been completed on Hazoor e Anwar SAW. No other person can come after him to cancel His shariah and starts his own, till the day of Judgement.
You want to declare Ahmadis non-muslims on the basis that they do no agree with the interpretation of khatam un nabiyeen, by all means do so. In face you have, and this has fulfilled the prophecy of Prophet Muhammad PBUH when he said that my ummat will be divided in to 72 sects like jews, but there will be one jammat who will be the righteous.
*ur reply is itself answer of question, i have no intention of getting into another debate on proved issue of Qadyaniat... i think the info here is enough for the lady to establish the fact that Qadyani/Ahmadi/Marza;ee are the non-muslims.. * To add more to her Knowledge i Must say that all Qadyanies/Ahmadies/Marza'ees consider us ( who don't believe in the Prophet-hood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan) as Kafirs... funny but true..
**I thought you are a true Muslim, but you are such a SUCKER, really such a SUCKER in my eyes and you have fallen so low in my eyes that I will never take you serious except this time. To be honest my friend, AND YOU KNOW THAT VERY WELL ALSO, you never brought any valid argument against them, but instead told the people visiting this Page that Qadianis follow the Shariat of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as). We follow the Shariat of Muhammad Mustafa (saw) as his Shariat is the last one. This is cristall clear to someone who reads the writing of Mirza Ghulam (as) with an open heart, but your heart has been sealed by Allah, because you are one of the creation Muhammad Mustafa (saw) warned us about.
All what you do is bark what your so called Ulema in Kuwait bark! You probably never had anything to do with Ahmadiyyat and never discussed this matter in the light of the Qur'an and Ahadith.
Strange to me that Muhammad Mustafa (saw) said no Prophet will come after him, but Jesus - a Prophet sent to the Israelites - can return. What will he bring? The Mosaic Law?
You CRISTALL CLEARLY run away from a debate and then act as a smarta s s and tell us that things have been proved! Nothing has been proved. You can declare as many fatwas as your beloved Ulema and you want. Your high esteemed Ulema and your forefather and even the Government did everything to stop this so called Cult, but everyone died a painful death, a dog's death! And then when you couldn't stop it and had to face the truth, accusations arose saying we are supported by British and Israelites. What you not all tried together! What did you gain? The curse of Allah! See the state of Pakistan and Afghanistan! Welcome to the reality! The Muslims are not united, this is absolute lie, they are divided. If they were United they would have helped the innocent people of Palestine suffering for 40+ years. Your Ulemas and Dictators and States Men are only bunch of liars, rapists and murderes who think they are God and can declare who is a believer and who not as if you could see in the heart. You are truly God! God I don't want have such a faith where I kill innocent and make propaganda against innocent. Luckily you are not God!
You declared yourself Non-Muslim by your statement.
*I warn you to think about what you say and bark! This is a absolute false argument of yours just to boil over the heat here.
*
**
Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?
^^^^ And I thought religion was supposed to unite the world........and we are not even talking abt multiple religions here. Athiest are more united than any religious groups in the world...yay...GO ATHEISM !
Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?
BTW...this BentQ8i is just a poser......sit back and relax guys !
^^^^ And I thought religion was supposed to unite the world........and we are not even talking abt multiple religions here. Athiest are more united than any religious groups in the world...yay...GO ATHEISM !
And this sentence comes to your mind when I post the truth? Has Hanibal brought Religion together or Armughal or are you just a poser?
**I thought you are a true Muslim, but you are such a SUCKER, really such a SUCKER in my eyes and you have fallen so low in my eyes that I will never take you serious except this time. To be honest my friend, AND YOU KNOW THAT VERY WELL ALSO, you never brought any valid argument against them, but instead told the people visiting this Page that Qadianis follow the Shariat of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as). We follow the Shariat of Muhammad Mustafa (saw) as his Shariat is the last one. This is cristall clear to someone who reads the writing of Mirza Ghulam (as) with an open heart, but your heart has been sealed by Allah, because you are one of the creation Muhammad Mustafa (saw) warned us about.
All what you do is bark what your so called Ulema in Kuwait bark! You probably never had anything to do with Ahmadiyyat and never discussed this matter in the light of the Qur'an and Ahadith.
Strange to me that Muhammad Mustafa (saw) said no Prophet will come after him, but Jesus - a Prophet sent to the Israelites - can return. What will he bring? The Mosaic Law?
You CRISTALL CLEARLY run away from a debate and then act as a smarta s s and tell us that things have been proved! Nothing has been proved. You can declare as many fatwas as your beloved Ulema and you want. Your high esteemed Ulema and your forefather and even the Government did everything to stop this so called Cult, but everyone died a painful death, a dog's death! And then when you couldn't stop it and had to face the truth, accusations arose saying we are supported by British and Israelites. What you not all tried together! What did you gain? The curse of Allah! See the state of Pakistan and Afghanistan! Welcome to the reality! The Muslims are not united, this is absolute lie, they are divided. If they were United they would have helped the innocent people of Palestine suffering for 40+ years. Your Ulemas and Dictators and States Men are only bunch of liars, rapists and murderes who think they are God and can declare who is a believer and who not as if you could see in the heart. You are truly God! God I don't want have such a faith where I kill innocent and make propaganda against innocent. Luckily you are not God!
You declared yourself Non-Muslim by your statement.
*I warn you to think about what you say and bark! This is a absolute false argument of yours just to boil over the heat here. *
**
Ofcourse in eyes of Ahmadi i am a non-muslim / Kafir
Now i understand that y are u so pissed of.. this always happens with qadyanies, when ever i put something about them, they post 100 lines without any sense and all they do is cursing and crying like you are doing.. i guess this is what u have been taught by ur Prophet Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan...
So carry on.. tell us more about his teachings...
Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?
**Strange to me that Muhammad Mustafa (saw) said no Prophet will come after him, but Jesus - a Prophet sent to the Israelites - can return. What will he bring? The Mosaic Law?
**HAzrat Essa will not come as aprophet but as a follower of Prophet Mohammad. He will come back to prove to the christians and other non believers that he never claimed divinity. no one can guide those whome Allah has forsaken (bcz of their stubborness.)
Ofcourse in eyes of Ahmadi i am a non-muslim / Kafir
*Now i understand that y are u so pissed of.. this always happens with qadyanies, when ever i put something about them, they post 100 lines without any sense and all they do is cursing and crying like you are doing.. i guess this is what u have been taught by ur Prophet Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan... * So carry on.. tell us more about his teachings...
Don't twist the story. You proved yourself that you are NONE...We never said that. Get your facts straight you liar.
*You have not understood and will never. All this BS you wrote down, tell that Allah on judgement day, right! My Post has 1000000 % sense! You make the curse and cry and then you wonder? I thought you are literate! You cannot even answer Post Numer 31, but keep on barking since your first post. Never changing routine of Ahmadi Foes! I will reply the way you started and kept on replying!
*
**Strange to me that Muhammad Mustafa (saw) said no Prophet will come after him, but Jesus - a Prophet sent to the Israelites - can return. What will he bring? The Mosaic Law?
**HAzrat Essa will not come as aprophet but as a follower of Prophet Mohammad. He will come back to prove to the christians and other non believers that he never claimed divinity. no one can guide those whome Allah has forsaken (bcz of their stubborness.)
of course :D
He is learning Islam directly from Muhammad Mustafa (saw)! What a blessing. He won't have to decide which sect to choose when he comes down, right!? and then he will slay all the 72 sects, kill the swine, break the cross! Wow, I cannot wait for that day..When is he coming, when is he coming?
Don't twist the story. You proved yourself that you are NONE...We never said that. Get your facts straight you liar.
*You have not understood and will never. All this BS you wrote down, tell that Allah on judgement day, right! My Post has 1000000 % sense! You make the curse and cry and then you wonder? I thought you are literate! You cannot even answer Post Numer 31, but keep on barking since your first post. Never changing routine of Ahmadi Foes! *
Ya ya ya .. keep whining this what normally the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan are good at...
try to put some sensible posts....
but how come you do that... as it is rare commodity in Qadyaniyat
Ya ya ya .. keep whining this what normally the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan are good at...
try to put some sensible posts....
but how come you do that... as it is rare commodity in Qadyaniyat
when people can't answer...they want to run away and hide and wait if a reply is coming, to justify their selfish needs they even keep on barking...yeah keep on whining my friend. I'm done with you here. You proved me not to keep on discussing with you anymore!
have you put down a sensible post? :D Not really, my friend errr my foe!