What is a sect? [split from 73 sects]

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: What is a sect? [split from 73 sects]

Whoops, sorry for misunderstanding. It is the Shia.

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Glad tiding O Ali! Verily you and your companions and your Shia (followers) will be in Paradise."

Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p655
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p329
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v12, p289
al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani
Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v10, pp 21-22
al-Darqunti, who said this tradition has been transmitted via numerous authorities.
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p247

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The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "The Shia of Ali are the real victorious in the day of resurrection/rising"

al-Manaqib Ahmad, as mentioned in:
Yanabi al-Mawaddah, by al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, p62
Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, who quotes the tradition as follows: "We were with the Holy Prophet when Ali came towards us. The Holy Prophet said: He and his Shia will aquire salvation on the day of judgment."

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وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِحَبْلِ اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلَا تَفَرَّقُوا ۚ وَاذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ كُنْتُمْ أَعْدَاءً فَأَلَّفَ بَيْنَ قُلُوبِكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُمْ بِنِعْمَتِهِ إِخْوَانًا وَكُنْتُمْ عَلَىٰ شَفَا حُفْرَةٍ مِنَ النَّارِ فَأَنْقَذَكُمْ مِنْهَا ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ آيَاتِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ {103}
[Shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.

The Messenger of Allah said: "Ali is with Quran, and Quran is with Ali. They shall not separate from each other till they both return to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."
Sunni references:

al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p124 on the authority of Umm Salama
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, section 2, pp 191,194
al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani; also in al-Saghir
Tarikh al-Khulafa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p173

And that covenant (rope in other translations) is..?

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إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةً قَانِتًا لِلَّهِ حَنِيفًا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ {120}
[Shakir 16:120] Surely Ibrahim was an exemplar, obedient to Allah, upright, and he was not of the polytheists.

Ummatan, so 1 single man can be the ummah.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنْ تُطِيعُوا فَرِيقًا مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ يَرُدُّوكُمْ بَعْدَ إِيمَانِكُمْ كَافِرِينَ {100}
[Shakir 3:100] O you who believe! if you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book, they will turn you back as unbelievers after you have believed.

Abu Ja'far (AS) said about the verse 'You are the best nation raised up for the (benefit of) people...(3:110)': "The Members of the House of the Prophet."

al-Durr al-Manthoor, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti under commentary of verse 3:110 of holy Quran.

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watch the video on dunya tv website

http://dunyanews.tv/play_program_video_eng.php?id=6846&pid=1817

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Peace brother Jafri

This is all well and good. What is the reply that RasoolAllah (SAW) gave to the question "which sect will that be?" The whole narration of the hadith is important.

Like you I too believe that those who are supporters of Ali (AS) will be successful, that is why we include him Ali (AS) in amongst the 4 caliphs. The rest is semantics. I follow Ali (AS) and so do you.

It is fine that the supporters of Ali (AS) will be successful, but it does not say in any of your quotes that others will not be successful ... I'm looking for the reason how the 1 sect can be distinguished from the others that WILL go to hellfire. So far you have not shown this.

Read above in red a part of what you quoted ... be not disunited. This is a clue no doubt!

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Re: What is a sect? [split from 73 sects]

The shia of Ali can be the Ahle Sunnah as well, it doesn't guarantee that the "shia" of today are the ones mentioned, especially the ones who believe in divine imams (nauzubillah).

Hanafis connect to Ahlul Bait in four ways; Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) was the student of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir(rad) and Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq(rad) and Imam Zaid bin Ali (rad). Also not to forget the students of Imam Abu Hanfia(r) studied from Imam Musa bin Ja'far al-Kazim. Alhamdulillah.

Also Imam Malik(r) studied under Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq(rad) as well.

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Re: What is a sect? [split from 73 sects]

Sect, madhab, groups are mere arbitrary definitions.

Anyone can make up these definitions based on any part of belief being ‘important’ or ‘not important’.

What is common among these is the ‘some differences of opinion’ among the people who follow one ‘religion’.

I do not know how come the question of what is a sect became a discussion who is right? :konfused:

Can we EVER win this argument? :frowning:

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:smiley: check out the lecture that I posted titled “Who’s right?” :k:

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** >>> First about SECT: ** To me it’s not a “madhab” [Jafri], but a diversion from madhab.

I found this following description on-line and its pretty much seems reasonable definition of a Sect.

When we hear the terms "sect" and "sectarianism" we begin to have negative feelings. Nobody wants to be a sectarian, and nobody wants to belong to a sect.

The word is derived from Latin SECTRA meaning "followed principle, guideline and party". The Latin noun (according to 'Duden's German dictionary') probably belongs to the Latin SEQUI (secutum), which means "to follow". The noun "sectarian" - follower of a sect - first appears in the 17th century. It is interesting to note the connection between the words "sequi" and "con-sequent" (in Latin CON-SEQUI - "follow together"). Most common dictionaries explain the term "sect" in the religious realm, as a small groups, separated from mail stream.

"A sect is a structure which is primarily related to religion and has the following features: small in number,
- it stands next to a comprehensive structure;
- the members consider themselves to be elite;
- they have close fellowship;
- they adhere to special differences that often seem to be rather minor;
- they assimilate slower; and
- might suffer persecution, detention or loss of reputation.

The leadership is less bureaucratic and more charismatic. Honigseim compares the sects with the church. He divides them into three main types of sects:
- the "aggressive sect",
- the "tolerated sect" and
- the "assimilating sect".

The first one has a striking militant appearance, whereas the second one "denies violence and exists unrecognized". The "assimilating sect" gives in to the pressures of the environment and makes concessions.

All sects can end, or scatter, after the death of their founder or ceases to be a sect when, for example, members practicing another way of life join, and concessions are made, or when one gives in and adjusts to the environmental pressures.

More or less, this reflects divisions in all the religions.

** >>> Second about Which SECT is right: **

Holy Prophet (pbuh) said. *`They are those who will be like me and my companions.’ *

Now which Jamaat is like Him [SA] or His Companions? To look into this, one need to go back in time and compare each claimants, dot-to-dot, to see who is that one lucky Jammat.

Just a few pointers to compare as well -

Prophet Mohammad and companions

  • were persecuted
  • not allowed to say Adhan
  • not allowed to pray salat
  • not allowed to read Quran
  • not allowed to call their place of worship “Mosque”
  • not allowed to perform Hajj
  • not allowed to preach
  • in short not allowed to practice Islam

can you name one Jamaat that fit this criteria as well?

I understand, everyone has Ahadiths to justify, I'm asking literally, how you can compare? there should be some guidelines.

Good Luck !

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You gotta be joking right?

In every century there have been Muslims who were stopped from practicing Islam. So we say all them were that “jamaat”. :hehe:

Nauzubillah. Musailama came in Prophet(SAW)'s time and he was declared a kafir. Same is the case with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. Whoever claims prophethood, he is an imposter, a pakka kafir, there is NO DOUBT about it. If you go against the FUNDAMENTALS of Islam, you will be denied. Don’t cry “persecution”. Just embrace Islam, the truth and you will be allowed to practice it.

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My history is poor, enlighten this please.

Off note: Talking about qadianism, no one deny the fact that it’s a unanimous decision from the whole Muslim ummah, that they are not allowed to call themselves Muslims, Say Adhan, call their place of worship – a Mosque, Perform Hajj, Read or carry Quran, etc etc, In short any act reflecting them to be a Muslim is liable for punishment and under Pakistan Penal code, the punishment is death. Is this compatible to the Time when Islam was born?

Bottom line is: Don’t forget, everyone is waiting for a Messiah & Mahdi – the people who recognize him and accept him will be the RIGHT ONE, not the Jammats before him.

Jazakallah

.

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Why didn’t you quote all of my post?

Musailama came in the time of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam and he also believed in the Prophethood of Muhammad(SAW) but he was dealt with by the companions of Prophet(SAW) by first declaring him and his followers as apostates and then engaging war against them. After him came others and one of those were Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and Rashad Khalifa (Quranist) who also believed in the Prophethood of Muhammad(SAW) just like Musailama did. Following the tradition, we call both of these individuals apostates. They are impostors.

And please, Qadianism is not teaching the same Islam. They are teaching that there is a prophet after the last of all Prophets, Muhammad(SAW). That is enough to say how deviated they are. No matter how much they play with semantics, history is already written and consensus is already made for 1400+ years. Not to mention the books of Mirza is full of contradictions and the man alone is a joke just like Musailama.

And about Mahdi (AS), everyone is waiting for him. The signs before him and after him have not occurred yet, so how can you say one man is Mahdi at the same time not counting the other signs. Afterall Mahdi(AS)'s coming is a sign too. So keep everything in context as to where and how he will be recognized, what will take place before and after his arrival..etc AFAIK, he’s not going to be born in some village in India. :hehe:

This is my last post on this topic, I thought it was important to reply to yours. Let’s stick to topic from now.

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we can discuss about false prophets on another thread. for now just to let you know - false prophet dont survive long, leaving behind nothing but a name to be known as a symbol of Allah’s wrath. This is a promise mentioned in Quran [need ref?]. Contrary to that, Mirza Ghulam ahmad, claimed throughout that Allah has appointed him as Prophet, and today you can see his followers flourishing at every corner of the world - point to ponder.

secondly, Quran tell us the guidelines for who to believe in, “Allah, the Angles, The Books, The Prophets” this is the list… and in this list, among humans, PROPHET is the only rank to hold the belief in. If mahdi will be an ordinary person and Isa will be descend with out a prophet rank, they its not obligatory to believe in him… understand this concept and we can discuss where, why, who will be born mahdi..

This thread was started with the definition of Sect, turned into which sect is right, thus my post was drifted accordingly. please open up another thread, if you want establish your point. thanks much.

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ok. I listened to it. As far as his comments on khilafat are concerned, they have been adequately answered by jammat-e-ahmadiyya on youtube. here is link. (trycatchme.com)

As far as his comments on takfeer that no one has the right to issue fatawa-e-kufar against each other. I do agree with it in principal. how about you?

The case of 72 sects and a jammat was not properly discussed in the video. this matter was discussed in some detail by hazrat mirza tahir ahmed sahib and his video is also vailable on youtube. (trycatchme.com)

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Peace Zalim

Nice I like it! ... Well most of it I agree with. I don't agree with two things:

a) Your definition of the meaning "Ahl-ul-Sunnah Wal Jammah"
b) Your definition of the characteristics of Muhammad (SAW) and his companions (RA).

to answer a) ... The way of sunnah - or tradition and the way of the collective. The mainbody of Islam is the correct way. It is a pointer towards orthodoxy. It does not mean literally "like the companions" however one can say using argumentation that the orthodox are going to be like the companions. This I can agree with.

To answer b) ... One does not define what people are like by what others do to them. If someone is oppressed or prevented to do something it says less about the people oppressed and more about the oppressors. Unfortunately your definition of Sahabah is quite lame if all you can think about are things that they have been prevented to do by the kuffar of their times.

The best definitions are found in the seerahs and tarikh books. Some are:

  • Humble
  • Never argued
  • Showed compassion to outsiders
  • Never questioned RasoolAllah

Read up the books of 'aqeedah, they represent the beliefs of Ahl-us-Sunnah wal-Jammat.

The proof of the pudding as such is in the concept of breaking away or enjoining and compassion. Those people who separate cannot be those people who are 'collective' ... We have to find excuses to include and where we are different we must find common ground and interact. Those groups who split away and then separate are in English actually called ... CULTS. So there will be 73 divisions 72 of which will be CULTS and 1 will be the orthodox that will continue to benchmark humanity and invite and include all Muslims without takfir or separation.

A sect/cult should be understood by the definition of those that separate themselves from the mainbody.

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Brother! Jumat-e-Ahmadia is wrong about understanding Javed Ahmad ghamidi’s statements delivered in Dunyatv Programme. watch this;

I do agree with the concept of takfeer by Ghamidi sahib. and also agree that Qadiani jumat-e-Ahmadiya declaring all other muslims kafir, because muslims dont have faith on Mirza sahib. and according to qadiani jumat-e-ahmadia believing on Mirza sahib is compulsory in order to become a Muslim. see here >>http://alfazl.blogspot.com/search/label/Who%20is%20Kafir%3F

As far 72 sects issue is concerned I do agree with the following ; But you also mind it that Qadiani Jumat-E-Ahmadiya himself is divided into two major sects.

1: Qadiani Jumat-e-Ahmadiya (alislam.org)
2: Lahori Jumat-e-Ahmadiyya (aaiil.org)

so, Jumat–e-Ahmadiyya can never be 73rd sect.

Question:
I read a Hadīth about the Ummah of the Prophet (sws) being divided into 73 sects, and that only one will go to heaven. I wanted to know the definition of a sect, and the one which is on the right, and why?

Answer:

By collecting and analyzing all the texts of the Hadīth you have referred to, the picture which emerges ist:

i) The prediction stated in these Āhadīth pertain to the period just after the Prophet (sws), and relates to events within the land of Arabia. Such Āhadīth are meant to put Muslims on guard, and are also a means to substantiate the Prophethood of Muhammad (sws) for people of his times.

ii) The number 73 is not been used here in its literal sense. It is used here figuratively to emphasize a point. Such a usage has examples in every language. For example we say: If Ahmad has faltered three times you will falter four times. This does not mean that we are counting the number of times some one is going to falter. It only means that we are warning our addressee that he will falter more than Ahmad and therefore he should be very careful.

iii) The word firqah here does not imply a religious sect. It means the various political factions and groups which do not submit to the authority of the state and create anarchy in the society.

iv) These Āhadīth also direct Muslims to remain attached to the al-jamāah , when such a time of anarchy comes. The word al-jamāah means state authority, and does not mean a religious faction or group.

v) It is known that many factions like the Khawārij and the Sabāī created a lot of nuisance in the period after the Prophet (sws) by rebelling against the state authority. It is groups such as these which have been referred to in such Āhadīth. The Prophet (sws) is urging his Companions (rta) and followers not to become part of such rebellious factions and to cling to the authority of the state.

http://www.monthly-renaissance.com/issue/query.aspx?id=402

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JazakAllahu khair

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sorry ..did not get a chance to log in till now.
i will answer according to my knowledge and understanding. may Allah guide us to right path.

RIGHT PATH .....if you change direction from it thats when we humans form sects... goal I GUESS is same...jannat. but we invent our own ways to get there and that is when we pick the wrong path. what is mubham in Quran we pick those issues to cause fitna...by WE i mean humans. inventing our own version. when there is hadith to tell us EVERY aspect of life and quran Allah's own words why is it difficult to walk on the straight path??????????no sorry i do not agree that islam is an organization. islam has set all rules and laws ..

and all who claim to submit to Allah has to follow same set of rules laws and orders. muslims should be one unit not a set of groups.

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Peace aramis

I agree that Qur'an and Hadith are the source of knowledge, but I don't think it is called inventing our own version if we follow the scholars who are experts in Qur'an and hadith.

Also, I agree that we should be ONE, but that oneness is our spiritual unity not our physical unity. We will not be able to operate as a massive one thing. It is okay for some Muslims to do certain things and other do other things. But because one group is doing something different to another this does not give them cause to undertake one-upmanship against one another. Rather they should be happy with each other, open and inviting. If that is what you mean by one unit then I agree, if you say that madhabs should not exist then I cannot agree.

We should not be rival companies but departments in the same company serving a common goal.

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Why do you keep changing your question making it seem like you were asking the same question in the first place?

If that's the case how come it was not mentioned as the Shia of Abu Bakr/Umar as I recall several ahadith in Bukhari saying that they had more respect in the Prophet's (saw) eyes?

Second, it's simple. Look at who calls themselves the Shia of Ali (as) today. I understand calling yourself a Shia does not make yourself a Shia but from a Sunni perspective, would a Sunni call himself Shia of Ali (as)? If no, then why not? Wouldn't he prefer being called the Shia of Mohammad (saw) instead? If yes, then you already have your answer from the ahadith that following the Prophet (saw) = following Ali (as), and what had occurred in Jamal?

It's well known Ali (as) did not give bayah to ABu Bakr for 6 months, I am positive it's in Bukhari, yet the Sunni position is that Abu Bakr was the rightful khalifa in the 1st place. That's how you follow Imam Ali (as)?

Since the Prophet (saw) is giving guidelines for the Muslim's after his death, he asks people to follow Ali (as) - yet Abu Bakr becomes khalifa?

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yes and we do.

semantics = seemanstricks

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Re: What is a sect? [split from 73 sects]

bro Jafri..........u r flogging a dead horse here..........let these bros continue with their discussion........