What if...

[bao_bihari]

Re: What if…

@Mr.Popat

Firstly, I would like to thank you for showing respect and be gentle enough in the debate.
Secondly, I would be happy to interpret Quran and ahadith in accordance with earlier scholars and sahabah. In order for me to do this.. I, like any other Muslim should have 2 criterias to keep in mind again.

1. that interpretation, no matter who i take it from should not contradict with the teachings of Quran. A true Muslim’s criteria should always been Quran and ahadith first.. and then the correct interpretation of it, if we find difference of opinion.

Inshallah agreed, Since we both are parties so any ruling on whether this is correct intrepretation should come from earlier scholars writings. I hope you dont mind that.

Point what i am trying to prove is that your aqaidh do not corelate with ijmah e ummat for last 1400 years.

@Mr.Popat

2. Another criteria again is from Quran. I humbly request you to tell me how any earlier scholar’s interpretation is any hujjat on us? Has Allah instructed us to follow what scholars tell us? Has this been our standard by any chance ?

This is contradiction of your first poojnt, khair, ijmah e ummat is hujjat on us. There is a famous hadith of hadrat muaz bin jabal to support this. waisay bhi i am not taking scholars that you disagree with, we can alwasy choose the mujadideeen that MGAQ sahib cosnidered as mujadideen.

Ageed??

@Mr.Popat

If I start quoting scholars that are very famously known in ahl e sunnah and have written against the beliefs you are preaching, will you take their word for it ? keep in mind, they are not my standard.. but you are the one asking me to interpret it like earlier scholars.. so I ask you.. are you ready to listen to those scholars interpretation ?

You can always disuss the mufaridaat of such ulema in another thread.

@Mr.Popat

listen brother, with all due respect.. my aqaid are not any different than any ordinary Muslim. Just merely believing in a person we have been waiting for does NOT make a non muslim, and you ‘waiting’ for the same person does not qualify you as a Muslim. The definition of being a Muslim is as simple as it can be. Our prophet has already told us who is Muslim and who isnt. So, lets not get there.

It is not point of discussion at the moment , we can and we have discussed this point umpteen times already. So lets just move step by step.

@Mr.Popat

When we talk to Christians, though we put forth the pious character of our holy prophet s.a.w, but even before that, we create a room of prophethood or a man from God from their own book. Until and unless they dont accept that.. there is no point talking to them about the noble character of Muhammad PBUH.

The example is poor. We invite people to come join us (have a sip of water), and if they don’t like it.. dont drink. But do not stand outside of a flowing river and keep criticizing. This is the job of an opponents. They always find flaws. Christians even to this day write books after books about the concept of jihaad in Islam.. about the rights of women in Islam etc. Does that make Islam any less truthful ? Certainly not. If you need to understand a certain belief, ask the person believing in it and then reconcile and see if Islam allows it or not.

I am the one who needs clarification , and i want clarification about authenticity of MGAQ first, why so reluctance on this, if we both have to reach to a conclusion then i need to clear up on his personality before i can move any further. Otherwise it would be mere waste of bandwidth and time.

@Mr.Popat

It’s quite interesting to say that its good to be with majority.. but no body knows or cares about where the majority is taking you?
Islam is not the same as how it came 1500 years ago. People who curse sahabah call themselves Muslims.. people who bow down infront of a grave call themselves muslims, people who wrongly and unjustly kill people call themselves Muslims.. what is left of Islam ? We have lost the fear of God, we have lost the fear of being punished by God. But all that aside, its foolish to say our interpretation does not correlate to ijmah of ummah from 1500 years ago..since you dont even know what ijmahs have we seen throughout the Islamic history. It may not corelate to today’s ijmah of scholars who have pride of knowledge of deen in their hearts and less fear of God. But its not right to say it doesnt correlate to earlier Islam.

As for Psyah and Ibn Sadique.. i have always been willing to talk to them. But when they start beating around the bushes and dont even understand a simple thing and cant even explain any simple belief… why do I even waste their or my time ?

Bhai lets not move in circles, you believe on taqwa and knowledge of your scholars, and i am certain about taqwa and knowledge of my scholars, this approach will not lead us any where.

Onus is for you to prove as you have deviated from the mainstream aqeedah, you have to link your self with the golden chain of ahadith till our belived and you have to prove that how you intrepret quran and sunnah is in accordance with the teachings of islam. if you dont need any of these then it is better that we both post our points for our readers to learn rather then involve ourselves in a debate that will never end due to different benchmarks.

@Mr.Popat

for your kind information, my friend.. If you have any little knowledge about the subcontinent and the time in which Hz Ahmad (as) had been appointed, and if you read about Him from an independent source ( you can even read about him in English newspapers of those times.. inbox me for newspaper cuttings ).. if you ready about His character, about his work for Islam, about his marvellous understanding of Quran e Paak ( you can read what scholars at his time thought about him ).. if you read about why He was given the title of ‘Sultan ul Qalam’ , it does not take long to understand what a high spiritual status of a man He was.

Now, ofcourse, once one claim to be prophet, you see opposition. If Muhammad PBUH despite being called Sadiq and Ameen was being refuted by His own people.. Hz Ahmad(as) was his servant.. same had to happen to him too. We shouldnt be worried about that

As far as what He wrote and about his tone.. alas a very old allegation. All had been given answers of. One need to just be neutral minded and read up on the answers.

I’m not comparing Quran with any book by any means.. but even in Quran disbelievers have been called by harsh words.. someone who believes does not question. Someone who doesnt always questions even after getting answers.

The attributes you posted about Mirza sahib, i can debate on each of these attributes with you, but not know, either have a separate thread opened or just wait the current topic to end.

about his tone and language, lets discuss this here to prove what is right and what is not.

@obaid1982

Bao Bihari, I am sure you didnt watch the video or perhaps you played deaf of ear to it all. Sir Syed kay nazdeek Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) aik saleh insaan thay, Allama Iqbal kay nazdeek jis terha islam ko Mirza sahib ne samjha, kisi aur ne nahi samjha, dr Israr kay nazdeek Mirza sahib Ulema ki aankhon ka tara banay rahay, jab tak unho ne nabuwat ka dawa nahi kiya. Aur jaisay hi dawa kiya, yehi log dushman ban gaye.
Does this remind you of something in the past? Quraish ne Nabi Pak (saw) ko Sadiq aur Ameen ka title diya, lekin jab nabuwat ka dawa hua tu sab dushman ban gaye.

As far as harsh words used by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as),** you guys have always taken it out of context. Read the page before and after of the single line that you quote and it becomes apparent why a harsh tone has been taken. If you just continue to read quotes from websites like alhafeez and ahmedi.org, you will never be able to understand the subject matter that mirza sahib was explaining**. You cannot gain anything positive from the websites who entire purpose is propagate hatred towards us.

Quran mein jews ko “Zaleel Bandar” kaha gya hai (Al-Baqarah Verse 65). One can nauzobillah say that this sort of language doesnt suit a holy book, but once you read the subject matter in detail, language doesnt seem as harsh.

You keep going on about your interpretation of islam being the correct one. Agar ummat ka aqeeda theek hota tu Imam Mahdi kay aanay ki zaroorat hi kiya thi?

By the way, still no answer about why Issa (aw) would come to guide muslims.

i have the books, you can always quote the complete referances once i quote any thing out of context. Agreed?

@kchughtai

thanks for the link but couldn’t you find an un-biased or some pak gov site that have this information. This website is beyond doubt biased and look at its title: “second hand Islam”. pretty weird. isn’t it?

Ameen!!

here is the link to Mahzar nama. Written statement by Jammat-e-Ahmadiyya presented in National Assembly in 1974.

Do you still expect that this would be made public by Ahmedi sources? the data is available for every one to see, any one who have question over its authenticity just counter check this from main source available at islamabad.

another way is to prove the questions wrong from the religious text.

The information is scanned and genuine if you can prove this wrong , do so. Please read it BTW