What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Mirza bashir-uddin mahmood’s statement:
**
Refutation of Maulawi Muhammad Ali’s Account of Ahmadiyya Dissensions.**

After dealing with the alleged resemblance between my Jama‘at and the followers of Jesus as, Maulawi Muhammad Ali proceeds to describe the history of dissensions in the Ahmadiyya Movement, and endeavours to show how after the death of the Promised Messiah as a certain conjunction of circumstances gradually led the present writer to introduce changes in my former beliefs.

Alleged Innovations These changes, according to Maulawi Muhammad Ali, relate to three matters;

(1) that I propagated the belief that Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was actually a Nabi;

(2) the belief that he was ‘the Ahmad’ spoken of in the prophecy of Jesus as referred to in the Holy Quran in Al-Saff 61:7;

and (3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as.

That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit. What I deny is the statement that I have been entertaining these views since 1914 or only three or four years before. On the contrary, as I shall presently show, the first and the last of these beliefs were entertained by me even during the lifetime of the Promised Messiah as , while the second belief developed soon after the death of the Promised Messiah as as a result of the teachings I received from Hadrat Khalifatul Masih I ra , and of the various discourses I had, with him on the subject.

Please scroll down to page 56 and 57 on the following link:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books…-the-Split.pdf

Note: Mirza bashir-uddin mahmood stated the following:

A) the first and the last of these beliefs were entertained by me even during the lifetime of the Promised Messiah as

The following the beliefs during the time of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad:

(1) that I propagated the belief that Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was actually a Nabi;

and (3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as.

B) while the second belief developed soon after the death of the Promised Messiah as as a result of the teachings I received from Hadrat Khalifatul Masih I ra

(2) the belief that he was ‘the Ahmad’ spoken of in the prophecy of Jesus as referred to in the Holy Quran in Al-Saff 61:7;

Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad’s stance. He has made takfir on:

  1. `those who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah’. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)

  2. that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)

  3. who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim

  4. but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs."

  5. such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140)

At last we are getting somewhere. This should have been done with from page 1 :wink:

As the old saying goes “Give 'em enough rope, and they’ll hang themselves.”

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

OP asks a simple question, GS still delivers.

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

^ Did you ever try to catch a slippery eel or a wet bar of soap?

Now, now who’s showing “desperation, frustration, anger etc.

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

:). kiddo, just leave it. don't over do it. If there was no frustration on your side, these threads were not there in the first place.

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

It seems MODS of religion forum are on bhung.

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

ok. good.

[quote]

You could have told the same earlier, avain time zaya kia hamara.
[/quote]

bao jee, I have been saying the same thing from the beginning. Read my words again. why this drama?

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Brother Ibn sadique has asked some very valid questions to you, please give answer to them as well.

and if possible quote the first post where you said the same thing.

We dont want to waste time and energy on some thing which is very clear, but if you people start misleading others on a public forum then it is our duty to take the truth out to people who dont know. waisay bhi our believe set is not based on your refutation it is vice versa *meray dost.
*

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

bao bihari and company, which Islam are you inviting Ahmadis towards ?? Your Islam who declares a kalma-goh a kafir/non-muslim, your Islam who demolish kalima written on mosques, your Islam which is not even united in one street.. your Islam which promotes Muslims to kill Ahmadis in the name of Allah ? Your type of Islam who don't know how to give rights to their minorities ? What Islam are you talking about ? Remember the hadith where Muhammad PBUH said that there will come a time when Islam will only be present by its name, and Quran will be present in the form of text only. There mosques will seem like they're full, but they will be lacking hadayaah, and their scholars will be the worst creatures under the sky.

Tell me which group of Islam should I follow ? Islam which you people have made as mere fairytale, telling people stories about what happened in the past, but cannot happen in present or in future.. telling stories about what will happen when Jesus a.s comes. What is the definition of Muslim? You people have not even come up with a definition of who really is a Muslim. You will define Muslim based on what you think a Muslim is, totally neglecting what Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH have given us the definition.

Answer to your questions have been given. The answers dont have to necessarily be the ones which will entertain your mind. If you sincerely didnt know the answer, then you should take the answers we have given you. But if you insist on getting the answer you think is right, then don't ask us, rather just keep believing what you are believing.

As far as what you said earlier bao bihari, about how the whole building of the set of ahmadi beliefs can be demolished in 5 minutes, I can only feel bad for you. If you think you are the first person whose trying to defeat jamaat e ahmadiyya then I can only sympathize with you. Such people like you have came and gone and they saw nothing but disappointment, and failure. What's 5 minutes.. I assure you, if we give you your whole lifetime, you cannot and let me repeat, CANNOT defeat a single argument that Ahmadis put forth. Your arguments are so weak, that I have personally went to mosques to ask guidance from your scholars and they hesitate to talk to me.

hum karen to gunah, tum karo to imaan. Your ullamas don't have guts to talk to us on beliefs we differ in i.e: Jesus a.s , dajjal, and the concept of khatm e nabuwat and give us a shut up call in Pakistan and ban our literature from publishing for the public.

Do what you can, try your luck in trying to demolish the building of sets of beliefs of Ahmadiyyat. You will only be trying to spit on sun.

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

haha

"You can't build a great building on weak foundation"

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Mr. Popat that’s the only relevant part to the topic at hand. OP asked a simple question and the Ahmadi Brigade here leapt forward and gave answers quite contrary to what they have in their books and against the position held by their eminent elders.

Only if you lot had been sincere to your books and elders not be on public relations bandwagon to hoodwink the public. this thread would not have gone beyond page 1.

Getting quite delusional aren’t you?

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

^^ is it fair to say that you are not following the ahadith of Muhammad PBUH when he said anyone who direct themselves to Kaaba for praying is Muslim, or when He PBUH said, who ever eats halal food is a Muslim, or when He PBUH said anyone who recites kalima shahadah is a Muslim. If you have another definition of Muslim, then you are openly and clearly rejecting Holy Prophet PBUH's ahadith. So, go ahead, tell me if Ahmadis are Muslim or non-muslim/kafir.

and no, absolutely not. Your scholars don't have enough evidence from Quran and ahadith to speak to Ahmadis. That was my personal experience. You dont have believe in it. You don't worry about it.

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Dear *Mr. Popat *– I sincerely sympathise with the position you are in and admire your passion. You meet all the conditions to be a Muslim, may be a better Muslim than me.

But by following another prophet against what the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had proclaimed, that he is the last and final Prophet and Messenger from Allah Almighty and the Blessed Quran states the same, you have opted yourself out of Ummah of Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

It is not me or any other person declaring Ahmadis non-muslim/kafir but their own actions.

Please for once be sincere and apply the same (I have highlighted it in your quotation) to the statements of Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad’s stance.

[QUOTE]
*
1) `those who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah'. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)

2) that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)

3) who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim

4) but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs."

5) such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140)*
[/QUOTE]

Do you agree with his takfir? Not that we care.

My stance is very clear as I said before by following another prophet against what the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had proclaimed, that he is the last and final Prophet and Messenger from Allah Almighty and the Blessed Quran states the same, you have opted yourself out of Ummah of Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). With the evidence from the Blessed Quran and the Noble aHadith Ahmadis are non-muslim/kafir.

I am using the same formula as used by Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad.

Ahmadis are to us in same position as you would take Musaylimah the liar and his followers to be.

If you reject claims of Mr Mirza Ghulam Ahmad then you will have done the best favour for yourself and joined the Ummah of the Blessed Final and the Last Prophet (peace be upon him) of Allah Almighty.

We must always pray to Allah Almighty to guide us and keep us firmly on the right path – the path that earns His Pleasure. Guidance is indeed only from Allah Almighty.

*"And whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam, and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky." [Al-An'aam, 6:125]

"Verily! You (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills." [Al-Qasas, 28:56]

"And they will say: All the praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has guided us to this, never could we have found guidance, were it not that Allah guided us!" [Al-A'araaf, 7:43]
"He whom Allah guides, is rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no wali (guiding friend) to lead him (to the right Path)." [Kahf, 18:17]

"Say: Verily, Allah sends astray whom He wills and guides unto Himself who turns to Him in repentance." [Ar-Ra'ad, 13:27]
*

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Quoted for truth.

:k:

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Mr popat, If some one intends to accept the haq then even 5 minutes is enough for him, .Otherwise if hidayat is not in some ones muqadder then there were people in our beloved prophet :saw2: times whom he :saw2: gave dawa but they did not accepted it. Who is better in dawah then our beloved :saw2: (fidaka abbi wa ummi).

Ok do one thing as favour for us, try praying for our hidayat sincerely, i will pray for yours, inshallah ALLAH will show us the right path if we are sincere. and rereview this thread with intention to find haq not to counter argue with us.

Allahumma arinal haqqa haqqaw warzuqnat tiba’ah, wa arinal batila batilaw warzuqnaj tinabah.

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

If Muhammad PBUH proclaimed to be the last prophet the way you're taking it, then what is your understanding on the coming of Jesus a.s ?

You are saying Muhammad PBUH is the 'last' prophet.
You are saying Jesus a.s will come back again
You are saying people who will reject Jesus a.s will be kafirs.
If you say >> Jesus a.s will NOT be coming as a prophet, then you are not in line with what your scholars say
If you say >> Jesus a.s WILL be coming as a 'prophet', then you contradict with your own self when you say Muhammad PBUH is the 'last' prophet.
You only become kafir if you reject one of the article of faith, one of them is imaan on 'all the prophets'
If you do say Jesus a.s will NOT be coming as a prophet, then the denier of a non-prophet person CANNOT be called a kafir. We are only told to have imaan on the prophets of Allah, not someone who is NOT a prophet. It is same for someone whether he accepts Jesus or not accept jesus. It should NOT make any difference since he will NOT be coming as a prophet anyway.

Then, theres another question about what you will call a Muslim if he rejects Jesus a.s, in his eyes, you r kafir, and in your eyes he is.

I hope I didn't confuse you with the above analogy. Hope you read it with calm mind and answer after giving it a thought.

[QUOTE]
Please for once be sincere and apply the same (I have highlighted it in your quotation) to the statements of Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad’s stance.

Do you agree with his takfir? Not that we care.
[/QUOTE]

answer has been given ibn sadique, what is the matter with you ???? He cannot be called a Muslim because he reject who we believe to be a prophet of Allah. I told you earlier how a Muslim MUST believe in all prophets of Allah, or else he is denying an article of Islam. He fails to be a Muslim in the eyes of Allah, and his Prophet Muhammad PBUH. You accepted it yourself that rejectors of Jesus a.s will be kafirs. But, if he think he is Muslim, then his imaan is with Allah. We dont point fingers at who is and who is not a Muslim. Therefore, we call kafir of Promised Messiah to be a kafir of Promised Messiah(as) ONLY. Rest, he is free to practice Islam, and label himself as Muslim. We only invite you people to accept the person you have been waiting for yourself.

[QUOTE]
My stance is very clear as I said before by following another prophet against what the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had proclaimed, that he is the last and final Prophet and Messenger from Allah Almighty and the Blessed Quran states the same, you have opted yourself out of Ummah of Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). With the evidence from the Blessed Quran and the Noble aHadith Ahmadis are non-muslim/kafir.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you see what i'm saying? your belief of Jesus a.s coming is only a mere belief. I don't think you have ever given it a thought about how you will be called a kafir too IF Jesus a.s comes and IF you accept Him ( which is very unlikely as we see from history, people who have decided they wont believe will never believe ). You know very well how IF you do accept Jesus a.s you too will be a minority, and majority just like now, will be giving fatwas against you. You are only happy to be called a Muslim, but have you ever thought what goes into being a Muslim ?

Your stance is wrong, sorry to say. Muhammad PBUH have given us a glad tiding of a prophet who will be raised among Muslim Ummah, who will be an ummati prophet, whose title will be Ibn e Maryam, who will follow and spread the true teachings of Islam. He will establish a Jamaat and will unite Muslim Ummah under one banner. People following Him will be Muslims, though, not according to people who reject Him. So, you decide.. do you care people calling you kafir or a Muslim after Ibn e Maryam has descended?

@Bao bihari: Thank you. You all are always in our prayers. May Allah open your hearts to accept the true teachings of Islam, the teachings which makes perfect sense, which is not a fairytale. May Allah enable you to see that Islam's Allah is a living Allah, who speaks even to this day as He used to speak before..who listens even to this day as He listened before..and that not a single one of His attribute is stopped as it has never stopped before. Ameen.

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Here we go round and round – back in circular motion yet again.

Please listen to this for once – We don’t have to repeat it again and again.

If you don’t understand it then it is your problem.

The Last person appointed to be Prophet by Allah Almighty is the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). After him there will be no more appointments. The door of Prophet hood is closed forever. The seal of Prophet hood has been set never to be broken. This Seal has been put in place by Allah Almighty Himself at His own pleasure.

Whoever claims to be a prophet will be deemed a liar, pretender and a charlatan. By this act he will become a kaffir.

Prophet Jesus ibn Maryum (as) is not the last appointed Prophet.

The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has told us on second coming of Prophet Jesus ibn Maryum (as) – this time around he will come to lead the Muslim Ummah and the world at large to Victory over falsehood and bring justice to the World.

This is the Belief of 1.7 Billion Muslims.

You don’t have to believe it no problems.

The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) also warned us about coming of false prophets. Those who fall in the nefarious traps of these false prophets will leave the fold of Islam.

This is what Ahmadis have done (fallen in trap of a false prophet).

We don’t see any contradiction at all.

Let me repeat myself yet again

1) The Last person appointed to be a Prophet by Allah Almighty is the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). After him no more appointments. The door of Prophet hood is closed forever. The seal of Prophet hood has been set never to be broken. This Seal has been put in place by Allah Almighty Himself at His own pleasure.

2) Prophet Jesus ibn Maryum (as) is not the last appointed Prophet.

3) Even as a Prophet, Prophet Jesus ibn Maryum’s (as) mission this time around will be to lead the Muslim Ummah and the world at large to Victory over falsehood and bring justice to the World.

Absolutely true. Belief in all the Prophets (peace be upon all) is a must. Otherwise one becomes a kaffir.

On the other hand if one believes in all the Prophets (peace be upon all) and breaks the Seal of Prophet hood to add a false prophet in the list – As Ahmadi do. This action takes one out of Islam.

This is according to the Quran and ahadith.

As you said one becomes a kaffir by rejecting even one article of faith – one of the articles being imaan in all Prophets – all the Muslims reject the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet. He is same to us as Musaylimah the liar.

Will you now take them as Muslims or Kaffirs?

Or you prefer to call them non-Ahmadi Muslims?

Now be true to what you said:

“You only become kafir if you reject one of the article of faith, one of them is imaan on 'all the prophets”

We don’t believe in your prophet!!!

There can be no such term as "Non Ahmadi Muslims" – “So-called Muslims” as used by Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad is more appropriate.

The answer was not given at all - it has been dragged out of you against your will - Agreed to that – We don't reject Hz. Jesus ibn Maryum (as) We reject the false Jesus bin Chirag Bibi – So should be labelled as kaffirs – not as 'non-Ahmadi Muslims' you lot do.

Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad was pointing fingers somewhere – against whom? :)

You are playing with words again my dear** Mr. Popat.** ;)

You don’t call kafir of Promised Messiah to be a kafir of Promised Messiah(as) ONLY

Please refer to statements of Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad:

He deemed anyone who does NOT accept and BELIEVE in prophet hood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is not a Muslim, cannot be taken as a Muslim, is out of pale of Islam and is a Pukkah Kaffir.

Please don’t gloss over his words.

Non Ahmadi Muslim is a misnomer It's like saying "a thin fat man" - "a clever foolish man"

Dear** Mr. Popat** I took my time out to answer most of your post – I didn’t answer some parts – very confusing.

Somehow in between the lines you and brother **Kchugtai **have accepted that Ahamdis take those who reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are Kaffirs but are constrained by public relations stance to say so.

Thus using Non-Ahmadi Muslims but not meaning it.

Phew! Enough said by from me on this thread.

"And whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam, and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky." [Al-An'aam, 6:125]

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

No. Hang on there. Now, why are you making a different meaning of khataman nabiyeen. You are NOW implying it to mean Muhammad PBUH is the last 'appointed' prophet, and there will be no 'new appointed' prophet after Him. Where did this come from ???? You are putting your own definition in it. Do you not see that ?

The seal of prophethood is set to never be broken ? Who is Jesus a.s ? he WILL be coming with a NEW mission right, therefore it doesnt matter if he was appointed before or whatever, HE WILL be coming with a NEW mission ! how in the world will you not see him as a new prophet, this time sent for Muslims ????? How will He know his NEW mission if Allah will NOT tell him what to do ???? Are you saying a 'non-prophet' will have all the power of changing the world, something even prophets couldnt do ?

[QUOTE]
The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) also warned us about coming of false prophets. Those who fall in the nefarious traps of these false prophets will leave the fold of Islam.

This is what Ahmadis have done (fallen in trap of a false prophet).
[/QUOTE]

That's just being emotional there. Someone who fails to recognize a true prophet gets his share of sin too.

Let me give you an example.

If some fake person comes to you wearing police uniform and ask you to show him your driving licence, auto insurance etc.. if you provide him with all that he ask for, then you are NOT at fault, simply because you THOUGHT he represented police and as a good citizen you ought to obey the law. The government will take action against that fake police officer, but no action is taken against you.

If a person who actually represent police and ask you to provide him with whichever documentation he needs, and if you DO NOT give him, the action WILL be taken against you, NOT the one who actually is a police officer.

Same thing applies here. If you choose not to accept a prophet sent by Allah, then Allah will take action against you, not his prophet. If I am believing a 'false' prophet, then that person's punishment is with Allah, and no action will be taken against me, as i THOUGHT he was from Allah. ( Fake police officer being a fake prophet, a real police officer being a real prophet, and government would be Allah in this whole example ). I hope you understand.

[QUOTE]
We don’t see any contradiction at all.

Let me repeat myself yet again

1) The Last person appointed to be a Prophet by Allah Almighty is the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). After him no more appointments. The door of Prophet hood is closed forever. The seal of Prophet hood has been set never to be broken. This Seal has been put in place by Allah Almighty Himself at His own pleasure.

2) Prophet Jesus ibn Maryum (as) is not the last appointed Prophet.

3) Even as a Prophet, Prophet Jesus ibn Maryum’s (as) mission this time around will be to lead the Muslim Ummah and the world at large to Victory over falsehood and bring justice to the World.
[/QUOTE]

So, Muhammad PBUH is the last 'born' prophet, whereas, Jesus a.s will be the last prophet to 'die' ?

I'm simply amazed how you see no contradiction at all.

Jesus a.s upon his second coming will be given a new task and mission. Do you believe Gabriel will not be coming to Him to tell him to do this and that ? or will he already be educated about his mission?

Jesus a.s will be a prophet. New or old appointment is your own made up explanation. He will be given a new mission, therefore, Gabriel will be coming to Him just like how he came to other prophets. Now tell me again what does khataman nabiyeen mean ?

[QUOTE]
Absolutely true. Belief in all the Prophets (peace be upon all) is a must. Otherwise one becomes a kaffir.

On the other hand if one believes in all the Prophets (peace be upon all) and breaks the Seal of Prophet hood to add a false prophet in the list – As Ahmadi do. This action takes one out of Islam.
[/QUOTE]

OK. Jesus a.s will not be breaking the 'seal' of prophet ? Please tell me how His new mission, him being called a prophet, him renewing the true teachings of Islam doesn't break the seal of prophethood ? If you accept Jesus, trust me you will also be taken out of the fold of Islam by people who wont accept Jesus a.s. Choice is yours as i said before. Be called a Muslim and reject Allah's prophet, or be called a kafir and be acceptable in the eyes of Allah.

[QUOTE]
This is according to the Quran and ahadith.

As you said one becomes a kaffir by rejecting even one article of faith – one of the articles being imaan in all Prophets – all the Muslims reject the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet. He is same to us as Musaylimah the liar.

Will you now take them as Muslims or Kaffirs?

Or you prefer to call them non-Ahmadi Muslims?

Now be true to what you said:

“You only become kafir if you reject one of the article of faith, one of them is imaan on 'all the prophets”

We don’t believe in your prophet!!!
[/QUOTE]

What do we call a person who reject Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) ? Same as what you believe a Muslim who abandons prayers and same as what you believe what a Muslim will be when he kills a fellow Muslim :)

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Mr.Popat - Quoting you below what Ahmadis believe – or is it just your made up belief?

**
Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad** (who is son and second successor of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad)

  • believed anyone who does NOT accept and BELIEVE in prophet hood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is not a Muslim, cannot be taken as a Muslim, is out of pale of Islam and is a Pukkah Kaffir.

There is a great contradiction in both – If what you say is right then Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad completely got it wrong!!! Otherwise it is other way around.
Ponder about the above.

Mr. Popat I have to go abroad yet again for around a week or so. All your queries will be answered when I get back insha Allah – no big deal. I am sure brothers here are more capable and will tackle your queries.

Till then take care

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

If the Sunni position on finality of prophethood is wrong and the Ahmadi position is right ... then how do they (Ahmadis) explain the historical killing of the claimants of new prophets by the Sahabah?

1 - Musailama al-Kazzab: Among the first false claimants to Prophecy was Musailama al-Kazzab, who appeared during the time of Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be blessings and peace) and his Companions and caused numerous troubles among Muslims and had many followers. He eventually surrendered along with his supporters in Al-Yamam battle, led by the first Caliph Abu Bakr, and was killed.

2 - Sajah al-Kahenah: Along with Musailama in falsely claiming Prophethood, was his wife, Sajah al-Kahenah, although she later reversed her position after her husband, Musailama, had been killed.

3 - Saf son of Sayyad: Another False claimant to Prophethood that appeared during the time of the Prophet and his companions, was Saf son of Sayyad. He claimed he was a Prophet when he was on the threshold of adolescence, and was initially believed to be the False Messiah, as his characteristics were the same as those of the False Messiah. He later repented and embraced Islam.

4 - Tulayha son of Khwailid: Tulayha was another of the false Prophets who appeared during the time of the Prophet and his companions, but later repented and returned to the fold of Islam.

5 - Aswad al-Ansi: Also during the time of the Prophet and his companions was another false Prophet, named Aswad al-Ansi. He was based in Yemen and was killed by the Companions of the Prophet.

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

are you saying sunnis understanding of finality of prophethood is correct because the above false claimants of prophets were killed ?

There are three ways of looking at it.

1) these claimants were not ordered by Muhammad PBUH to be killed. Not a single one. Infact, one of the above claimants ( I think Aswad al-Ansi ) claimed to be a prophet in Muhammad PBUH lifetime, and instead of Holy Prophet PBUH showing anger, I believe I read somewhere that Holy Prophet PBUH personally went to Him and asked if He has claimed to be a prophet, upon his affirmation, Muhammad PBUH asked Him to provide him with evidence proving that Gabriel comes to him just as he comes to Him pbuh. Look at His approach. Despite being a true prophet of Allah, he pbuh did not blindly say, he cant be prophet, since i'm the last prophet, but rather going up to him and asking him for evidence. He later did toba and took back his claim. Muselmah was killed not because of his claim of prophethood, but rather refusing to pay zakaat and creating army against Muslims and therefore openly announcing war against Holy Prophet PBUH. Kindly look into history books.

2) This is the true way of Allah. Allah says in Quran that if even Muhammad PBUH had lied on my name, I would have destroyed his mission (paraphrasing it). Islam has a living Allah, and he is always right in what He says. How then can one think that a true prophet of Allah will be getting same kind of treatment from Allah as the false claimant of prophethood? It's not possible. Therefore, Allah deals with people of such false claims. It is not in our hands to deal with whose right and whose not. They were killed, and hence Allah's word stand corrected.

If someone claims to be a prophet. One of two is correct : either he is saying the truth or he's completely lying.
In case of a true claim >> Allah promises in Quran that in the end Him and His prophet will be victorious
In case of false claim >> Allah will destroy him as well as his mission. His mission will not grow and his followers will leave him.

Let me explain further if I may.

If someone claims to be a prophet. One of the following is true : either Allah knows about his claim, OR he does not know about it at all. If we say Allah did not know about it, we are openly denying his attribute of 'all knowing'. This leaves us with last option of Him having knowledge of his claim. Then there are 2 possibilities : either Allah will keep his promise and destroy him and his mission and that will be the end of him OR Allah helps him in every step of the way, his mission starts to progress, his followers starts to increase, and Allah is His helper as well as the jamaat that He establishes.

Now, how is it that a 'fake prophet' is getting the same treatment by Allah ( Allah helping him at every step, his followers keeps growing in number, gets more opposition etc ) vs. the 'true prophet' whose treatment by Allah is exactly the same. Allah nauzubillah do not lie. Allah will destroy a fake claimant and will help the true claimant.

One cannot help but to think and ponder upon it and is forced to believe that Allah NEVER let a false claimant be victorious just like a true prophet. Allah does not like anyone saying lies on His name, and therefore deals with them HIMSELF. But WHY is it that Allah's mercy has always been with who you call to be a 'false claimant' ? Why is Allah doing such a thing ?

3: One other way of looking at it is that they claimed an independent prophethood against the Holy Prophet PBUH's prophethood, which is automatically a lie and shouldnt be taken seriously, as now the only prophethood that one can achieve is through mere Holy prophet pbuh's footsteps. Every other door of prophethood has now come to an end. No christian, hindu,jew or vice versa will ever see the face of prophet in their ummah. This fountain of prophethood can only be achieved through complete obedience of our Master Holy Prophet PBUH.

I hope this answers your question.