What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Society Religion & Philosophy
141

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Peace Mr.Popat

I can accept that you personally call us non-Ahmadi Muslims ... with the sin equivalent of kafirs (as your ta'weel) ... So that being the case as we reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and call him a kafir ... Is that not enough for you then to believe us to be kafir based on the other statement you make ... If someone does takfir then in reality they are making themselves kafir?

I must however sympathise ... I do not prefer to call anyone kafir ... I say 'Non-Muslim' because I believe that they may have not been given true guidance before ... But if clear guidance has come and it has been rejected as false ... Then that is to be a kafir ... It is only the fear of being a kafir that will make me button up and pay attention ... And if one of my teachers, or scholars says ... Such and such a thing throws us out of Islam ... Then I pay attention ... He can say such a thing, but not me ... Because I am not allowed, but he is saying it out of a sense of clarity and duty to his faith ...

The hang-up you have and the response you should give is ... Although you do have clear statements about who is and is not a kafir according to your own scholars, the fact is as layman Ahmadis you cannot call individuals kafir ... That is fine ... But at least draw a clear line for academic reasons ... An act of kufr gives us sin, but to be kafir puts us in the constant state of sin ... The kafir is doing kufr all the time ... A person who is doing kufr all the time is kafir ... So really by saying a non-Ahmadi Muslim is sinning like a kafir ... Is to say he is kafir ... Or else you would have reduced the word kafir to only a 'title' with no clear meaning. And If I am wrong ...

kindly explain the difference between "a Muslim who is in the state of committing kufr all the time" from a "kafir" ... And if it is only a difference of a label then why does calling us non-Ahmadi Muslim exonerate you, whereas calling us kafir condemn you? You know if the only difference is a label?

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

We are discussing aqaidh of mainstream muslims which they can not explain and just hide. Difference may be there but if some one with a difference explains/expresses the same openly then he is not hiding his aqeedah.

This is what you wrote.

[QUOTE]
The trait of hiding your aqeedah is widely seen in sunnis. Kindly go ahead and read your scholars literature. Read what they say about the coming of Jesus a.s.. read what they say about dajjal. They are so much in shock with the true explanation jamaat e ahmadiyya has provided to the world on these issues that now every time the topic of Jesus a.s or dajjal comes, they start attacking Ahmadiyya jamaat and give less of their own explanation.

If I start quoting books references and video references of your own scholars, this thread will go till page 50. Kindly spare me time and read yourself how conflicting thier views are about Jesus a.s, Dajjal, khatm e nabuwat etc. :)

We are in Islam. Thanks for your concern. We DO NOT hide a single aqeedah. When you ask an aqeedah and the answer is given to you, you must accept it as is
[/QUOTE]

Please start a new thread and discuss aqaidh which ahl e sunnah have but hide from other sects.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

the aqeedah they cannot explain is of khatm e nabuwat and waiting of Prophet Isa(as). They make it seem like its not a problem and that whatever they say makes sense. The aqeedah which they hold but cannot explain in the light of quran and ahadith. Therefore, they make such a fairytale and make a story and convince people that this is the process by which Prophet Isa(as) would come back. Such and such will happen(literally), this will happen before that and vice versa.

I guess what I meant was that they hide the true teachings of Islam, which Jamaat ahmadiyya presents, which also are their aqaid too, but they make it seem like as if jamaat e ahmadiyya is based on an entirely different concept. Hiding what's written in their own books, and neglecting some of their own scholars interpretation regarding coming of Jesus, dajjal etc.

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Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Why there is a need to repeat the same stuff over and over again. Yes, takfir of a muslim does make takfiri a kaafir.

You prefer to say non-muslim and not kafir out of sympathy. Psyah sahib, being a Muslim is a first step that a person takes towards Islam deliberately. If he declares that he is Muslim, say kalmia shahada then he becomes Muslim but a Muslim can be a disbeliever one way or the other. Please refer to verse in the Quran where Munafiqs have been declared as the one who first believed and then disbelieved. Can you tell me whether the holy prophet (pbuh) declared the known munafiqs as non-Muslims? Even the holy prophet (pbuh) offered funeral prayer of Abdullah bin ubaiy despite being advised otherwise. The Bedouins were said to be Muslims but not Momin as yet in the holy Quran. What was the definition of a Muslim as per the holy prophet?

Let me step back a little and tell you a few things. The Ahmadi people here and a statement by a person who has an ahmadi friend. They are not lying or deliberately holding something back. I am 40+ and in my lifetime, I have not seen the matter of takfir of non-Ahmadis, whether they are muslims or not etc. ever discussed. Why? Because takfir of anyone is not an issue for us and as I stated we don’t take initiative or pride in calling anyone disbeliever even if he actually is. Promised Messiah (as) didn’t initiate any takfir of the ones who didn’t accept him. Not because they were not in the state of “rejection of truth” but because he didn’t want to call kafir or non-muslim anyone who recite the kalima-e-tayyaba. When he said, it was in retaliation, in response of constant takfir and based on the hadith of the holy prophet (pbuh). I have quoted his statement in post #87 that nobody read. I can post more from his quotes if you care.
Now the statements by Mirza bashir-uddin mahmood and Mirza Bashir Ahmad have a background to them. I personally give precedence to the stance of promised Messiah (as) over other scholars. Close to a hundred years ago, a group named lahori or peghami emerged who loved to blend in with the mainstreamers. They lowered the status of promised Masih and tried to project as if belief in Promised Masih and Mahdi is a trivial matter. So whatever they stated was to highlight that it is a NON-TRIVIAL issue.

What would you call a person who associates himself with Islam but is unable to or deliberately didn’t accept the Masih and Mahdi. Let me state a few facts then deduce it from my answers:

  1.  Ahmadis don’t pray behind non-ahmadi imam. But they do accept their right to pray the way they believe in. We don’t believe in taking away their right to pray

  2.  Marriage: not recommended in non-Ahmadis

  3.  Meat: We have no problem in eating meat slaughtered by them in the name of Allah. Not true for your side.

  4.  Mosques: Non-Ahmadis are welcome in our mosques (of course if they come in peace). Not true vice versa

  5.  Despite knowing that there are differences among us, we don’t believe in acting as “Khudai Faujdaar” and stopping others from associating with Islam and identifying as Muslim since this was the way of the opponents of prophets and not the people of truth

Here are a few readouts for you. read if you have time

  1. Mahzarnama (Jamat-e-Ahmadiyya stance presented in 1974 NA)
    https://www.alislam.org/library/books/mahzarnama/Mahzarnama.pdf

2)Extreme Lies and Verdicts of Disbelief Against the Founder of the Ahmadiyyah Muslim Jama‘at
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Verdicts-of-Disbelief-Against-Ahmadiyya-Founder.pdf

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

I actually feel sorry for the Anti-Ahmadiyya folks for their desperation, frustration, anger etc.
They did everything from spreading lies to conspiracies, riots, legislation, brute force and what not against Ahmadiyya but they got only frustration.

1) Is this not true that they used to spread this lie that Ahmadis have a different Kalima. They engineered an image of mosque that has "Ahmed" instead of "Muhammad". If you are good then admit openly that it was a conspiracy

2) When it became clear to the world that our kalima is the same then they changed color and said that Ahmadis consider Mirza sahib as Muhammad in the Kalima (na aazu billah)

3) When this fact also became clear that the kalima is the same in appearance and in its meaning then they resorted to erase it from our mosques and grave stones.

I don't have time to write more on this but it is a fact that the whole Anti-ahmadiyya campaign is fundamentally based in deceit.

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Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Have you heard the joke related to ashraf, who knew only one story about his best friend and used to bring that story in every scenario :hehe:

Khair

This is not what you wrote Mr Popat initialy, any way this has been explained plenty of times but all it require is willingness to accept haq, may ALLAH open our heart for that.

Kindly first read this Ahmedies ko Dawat Islam and then this Welcome to Dawat Section For Ahmedies

if you have any other comments then please open a new thread and we may discuss this.

Can we now discuss the topic at hand, related to explanation of the images that i have presented?

  • What is your opinion on this, do you agree disagree with his(mirza basheer) opinion?.
  • What is your aqeedah about people with aqeedah and firm believe that mirza was liar in his claim, can they still make it with this believe to jannah? ( you are not deciding who is going or not but you should know what in your opinion takes one at risk of going in hell fire)

We will inshalalh build on these questions, try making your point clear and to the point.(you still have not given a clear cut answer)

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

They attribute confusion to us but they themselves are not clear on their fundamentals. Justice Munir's remarks on 1953 riots is a clear example that these guys are not united on the very definition of muslims. When they raised the issue of tauheed, issue of sajda to other than Allah was raised and I was surprised they were not very clear on this point as well and it all boiled down to the choice of their personal sheikhs. First of all, mend your own fences. then say anything about others. people living in glass housing should not be throwing stones

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Peace kchughtai

Thank you for saying that I say "non-Muslim" out of sympathy ... This is your better judgment about me ... but it is wrong. I do not sympathise with people who have not tried to find the truth. For me it is a blameworthy state to be a "non-Muslim" even ... But a kafir is a title of the one who "knows Islam and rejects it" ... for this reason many Ahmadis and Christians and other alike would not be kafir, others however are stricter than me ...

Above - you gave me the difference between some Ahmadis and some Muslims ... but I asked you to give me the difference of who you call a kafir from a non-Ahmadi ... You see my difference is based on the fact that they "must have true knowledge" and reject it rather than merely reject it due to their disposition, in order to be deemed kafir.

I could cover a table to make it look nice, but to cover a table with the intent of hiding a stain - that is kafara ... I must have knowledge of what is being hidden.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

How can this be linked with mirza basheer statements?

This is how a typical ahmedi discussion goes, Lie>fail-try to make people confuse>fail- make allegation/derail discussion

take any previous ahmedi thread and you will notice the same.

fact is you guys are not making any one fool but yourselves by not accepting haq which is as clear as day light.The whole building of ahmedi set of believes can be demolished in five minutes given the person is willing to accept haq.

if you still have some khush fehmi start a new thread and lets discuss ahmediyyat. :)

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Psyah sahib,

I simply repeated your words. Instead of keep arguing, it is better to read the reference I quoted. I hope you can read urdu. After that, we can have a civil talk :)

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Why only Ahmadiyat? Why not your deen whatever it is? which group do you belong to btw?

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

[QUOTE]

  • What is your aqeedah about people with aqeedah and firm believe that mirza was liar in his claim, can they still make it with this believe to jannah? ( you are not deciding who is going or not but you should know what in your opinion takes one at risk of going in hell fire)

[/QUOTE]

Certainly those who have considered the true Mahdi and Masih a liar and actively reject him and work against his cause are equal to those people whom Allah has regarded as "Maghdoob-e-Alaihim". They are certainly people who are away from the path that leads to Jannah

Now what next?

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

No need to discuss me here.We are dicussing ahmediyyat here, if you want to discuss any thing else go ahead do that in some other thread.

Waisay i belong to a group who consider mirza sahib a liar in his all claims of musleh>mehdi>massih>prophet

So you agree with mirza basheer statement?

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Brother kchughtai Now that you have made a clear statement – apply this to Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad’s stance. He has made takfir on:

[QUOTE]
"The article was elaborately entitled A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God'. The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely thatthose who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah'. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)

"Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)

"not only are those deemed to be Kafirs who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 139 -140)

"And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs. (veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book) A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140)
[/QUOTE]

1) `those who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah'. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)

2) that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)

3) who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim

4) but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs."

5) such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140)

Let us see if you have the guts to do justice to what you believe in.

Please no verbal somersaults or jugglery to dig yourself out of this. Keep in mind you are on public platform.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

so you don't want to declare which sect or group you belong to? hmm why are you hiding this truth? and why should your belief not be put to scrutiny? You are the one inviting to leave ahmadiyat then tell us clearly which set of beliefs are you inviting ahmadis to?

[quote]

So you agree with mirza basheer statement?
[/quote]

I stand by what I said. Move on. what next?

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Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

An informative video that pinpoints the issue in question:

Faith Matters: Are Non-Ahmadi Muslims Kafir? - Video Dailymotion

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

I just dont want to derail the thread :) any way i am muslim who follows deobandi scholars intrepretation of islam.

You could have told the same earlier, avain time zaya kia hamara.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

When Ahmadis were declared kafir by law in Pakistan - a huge shift took place within the Ahmadi people. It turns out many Ahmadis are students of law now - because they recognise the importance of it for their cause as a minority.

It turns out from the books of the Ahmadiyya - if they were in greater numbers they would also not hesitate in deeming the rest of us as kafir ... but the reason why they have changed their tune is because of what happened in the 70s. Since then their argument has been that:

"No one has a right to deny them the Muslim belonging"

But before then ... they were giving tit for tat ... condemning us but with worse language ... And we only need to look at history to prove this ... modern declarations are being made due to that shift ... so in my opinion can be disregarded ...

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

My sincere statement:

I have made a takfir on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - will you agree with your statement above? Or still take me as a non-Ahmadi Muslim?

Please no verbal somersaults or jugglery to dig yourself out of this. Keep in mind you are on public platform.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Ahah sarcasm. The Mahzarnama I quoted the link about, was presented before we were declared non-Muslim by the NA. pls take a look and you will know what was our stance.

[quote]

It turns out from the books of the Ahmadiyya - if they were in greater numbers they would also not hesitate in deeming the rest of us as kafir ... but the reason why they have changed their tune is because of what happened in the 70s. Since then their argument has been that:

"No one has a right to deny them the Muslim belonging"

But before then ... they were giving tit for tat ... condemning us but with worse language ... And we only need to look at history to prove this ... modern declarations are being made due to that shift ... so in my opinion can be disregarded ...
[/QUOTE]

So you admit that there always was a 'tit' before a 'tat'. right?
The problem with you guys is that you don't look at your own words and own actions and only care about others in this case Ahmadi Muslims. Before quoting us, kindly take a look at the works of your predecessors and you will know of their nice wording.

If we were in majority,
1) we would not have taken right of being called a muslim from you.
2) We would not have arrested you for putting a badge of kalima-e-Tayeba on your chest
3) We would not have condemned you for reciting from the holy Quran
4) We would not have written your deen for you.

I really sick and tired of this. Enough has been said.
You are just playing games with words and wasting your and our time.