What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Society Religion & Philosophy
101

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Lets take a look then, what i want from you is to show:
[QUOTE]
A more appropriate interpretation of this verse is that Allah ordered angels to do Sajda to Allah, for creating Adam.
[/QUOTE]

with or without denying the verses, as long as you are aware which of these bases you are upon

and you can share what you think are the core teachings of The Quran as well

102

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Couldn’t see the need or relevancy of this post, everything you mentioned has already been mentioned - unless there was a hidden message that i could not read

Do you actually believe what you wrote yourself?

Are you razi with the Angels prostrating to Adam Salam Alaih? Are you razi with the prostration to Yusuf Salam Alaih that you mentioned?

If nothing else come back to tell that you are ok, because I as well as kchugtai felt that you were possibly shaken. You should take heed of the comment of kchugtai to ‘kuch tau kauf kare’ regarding one of your comments. It was certainly out of place. Not all knowledge is to be made Bayan of at all times

103

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Dear Brother - There is no hidden message in what I wrote but if you were reading it clearly than you would surely have seen what the Prophet (peace be upon him) had said in the hadith quoted ealier.

[QUOTE]
“Do not do that. If I were to command anyone to prostrate to anyone other than Allaah, I would have commanded women to prostrate to their husbands.”
[/QUOTE]

I had even highlighted it! How could you have missed it?

Brother we must not take commands of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) lightly.

If you were to read the above command of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) and note that it has two parts.

1) First part – “Do not do that”. Clearly shows that the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) did not like the prostration done to him and forbade it on the spot.

2) Second part – “If I were to command anyone to prostrate to anyone other than Allah” Clearly shows that the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) has not commanded us not prostrate to anyone other than Allah.
**
A few ayahs from the Blessed Quran** – that we have follow the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him)
.
Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL* 3:31]***

The response of the believers, when they are invited to Allah and His Messenger that he may judge between them, is only to say: We hear and we obey; and these it is that are the successful. * 24:51]**

and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil):** [59:7]***

The above ayahs clearly prove that we have to follow the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) in all his commands – not picking and choosing.

This is one of the fundamental principles in Islam is that Muslims obey the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him), obey him in what he has ordered, and obey him in what he has forbidden.

I hope you agree with the above.

A few ahadith – that we have follow the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him).
*
Abu Hurayrah relates that he heard Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) say: “Whatever I prohibit you from doing, refrain from it, and whatever I command you to do, do of it what you are able. Those who came before you only perished on account of their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with their Prophets.” *[Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]**

The Prophet (saw) said, I have indeed been given the Qur'an and something similar to it besides it. Yet, the time will come when a man leaning on his couch will say, "Follow the Qur'an only; what you find in it as halal, take it as halal, and what you find in it as haram, take it as haram." But what the Messenger of Allah has forbidden is like what Allah has forbidden. (Hadith from the collections of Abu Dawud and Darimi. Narrated by AlMiqdam bin Ma'di Karib)

The Prophet (saw) said, “There will come a time when a man sitting upon his couch is told a hadeeth and he replies, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allah, the Mighty and Majestic. What we find in it to be lawful, we take as lawful and what we find in it to be forbidden, we take as forbidden.’ Indeed, what the Messenger of Allah has forbidden is like what Allah has forbidden.” Reported by Ahmad, Abu Daawood, Ibn Maajah and at-Tirmidhee, who declared it hasan. Al-Albaanee declared it saheeh in Saheehul-Jaami’ (no.8186).

I hope you agree with the above.

The Blessed Companions (May Allah be pleased with them all) of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) loved him more than themselves, their parents and their children and proved this by sacrificing their lives and what they had for his cause. Nobody can claim to love the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) more than his Blessed Companions except a liar.

There is not reference in ahadith material where the Blessed Companions (May Allah be pleased with them all) ever prostrated in front of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) or he let do it to him.

One of the fundamental principles in Islam is that Muslims obey the prophet Muhammad, obey him in what he has ordered, and obey him in what he has forbidden.

Did not the Blessed know that Hz. Mu'aadh ibn Jabal (ra) was doing a Sajdah Tazeem and was not that of Worship?

The fact is that he forbade it.

Having read the above would still hold that Sajda-e-Tazeem is allowed?

Now you are free to follow whom you like but it will not be the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him)

Yes I never write what don’t believe in – It is your Islamic duty to correct me if I have erred – but please give references from the Blessed Quran and the Sublime Hadith ONLY.

Yes – It is in the Quran

Are you satisfied with that the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade people to prostrate to him?

How can you and Kchugtai feel that I was shaken????????? Please control your imaginations don’t let them run wild and take you over. Take it easy.

I have come back to let you know that I am fine by the Grace of Allah Almighty and worry not, thanks for your concern.

Yes, Indeed one should fear Allah Almighty all of the time. And by the Grace of Allah Almighty I count myself from among those who fear Allah Almighty.

My comments were not out of place if read them in context and spirit they were written.

Out of sheer frustration when all the evidence provided from his books was against him **kchughtai **posted the following (of course with sense of humour):

May be you know it or not, Nuts means: crazy or insane people.

My response to him was that I was glad that he said so:

[QUOTE]
Truth is indeed is very bitter and hard to swallow.

When the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) preached the truth the kuffar thought HE was NUTS!
[/QUOTE]

What is offensive to your sensibilities to the above?

Did not the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) preach the truth?

Did not the Kuffar thought and called him: Crazy, madman, insane etc. etc.

May Allah Almighty guide us all and keep us on the right path that leads us to earn His Pleasure and away from the path that earns His Wrath - Ameen

Brother Please don't mind me saying this: It is bad manners to 'hi-jack' other person's thread - Let it be as it is - you should open your own thread and say what you want to. My apologies I shall not be responding to you in this thread.

104

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Respected brother **psyah ** :salam:

I think the consistency was in call to Tawheed and the shareeyah of each Prophet (as) was in line with prevailing situation at that time. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

The following ayah confirms that we have perfect religion:

“This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion” [al-Maa’idah 5:3]

The following ahadith confirm that the shareeyah of previous Prophets (May peace be upon them all) was now obsolete.

Umar -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- came to the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- and said: "O Messenger of Allah, I passed by a brother of mine from Banu Qurayza who wrote me some epitomes from the Torah, shall I not show them to you?" Hearing this the Prophet's face -- Allah bless and greet him -- changed. Abd Allah ibn Thabit said to Umar: "Do you not see what is on the face of Allah's Messenger -- Allah bless and greet him --?" Umar said: “We are well-pleased with Allah as our Lord and Islam as our Religion and Muhammad – Allah bless and greet him – as our Messenger!” The Prophet’s – Allah bless and greet him – anger abated then he said: “By the One in Whose Hand is my soul! If Musa came to you one morning and you were to follow him and leave me, you would be going astray. You are my lot among the nations and I am your lot among the Prophets.” -** Narrated from Abd Allah ibn Thabit by Ahmad, al-Tabarani, Abd al-Razzaq in his Musannaf (6:113), and al-Bayhaqi in Shuab al-Iman (3/4:307), all with weak chains because of Jabir ibn Yazid ibn al-Harith al-Jufi as indicated by al- Haythami in Majma` al-Zawa’id (1:173).**

Umar -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- brought the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- a book he had taken from one of the People of the Book. He read it to the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- who became angry and said: "Are you all going to fall into chaos, O Ibn al-Khattab? By Him in Whose Hand is my soul! even if Musa -- Allah bless and greet him -- were alive, he would have no alternative but to follow me.*" - **Narrated from Abd Allah ibn Thabit by Ahmad, al-Tabarani, Abd al-Razzaq in his Musannaf (6:113), and al-Bayhaqi in Shuab al-Iman (3/4:307)*

The Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) was aware that Hz. Mu’aadh ibn Jabal (ra) was doing a Sajdah Tazeem and was not that of Worship and he forbade him.

So any person allowing people to prostrate to him in any manner and those doing the prostration are doing so in defiance to the express commands of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him)

105

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

:wsalam: duly respected bro Ibn Sadique

I believe the classification for makruh was based on other evidences of the suggestion that the sajdah tazeem had been performed by members of the Salaf. As you well know many matters in ahadith are not entirely clear cut … And when presenting the argument from a neutral point of view all of the material around the issue is analysed … The few examples you gave and the supporting material creates the case of it not being allowed and do indeed support the view that it is forbidden, but there are some other references and other supporting Hadith can be given to make a case that suggest it is not forbidden … which then means after resolving authenticity and priority … Taking the cautious approach. One would for oneself abstain from it … If it feels heinous and resembles an act that is problematic. I’m not arguing for it … But I was merely relating the method that scholars of fiqh use to classify acts … And one of those rules they use is “previous permissibility cannot become impermissible for this ummah” … So one who does it cannot primarily be called a mushrik, and I know that is not your accusation, but to say it is haram and people saying it is not haram is a grievous aqeedah conflict.

So although I do not do it, I would not want to oust someone from Islam on account of them practicing it out of love and respect.

106

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

^ Jazakallah kahayrunn brother - I agree with you - What I want emphasize is that the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade prostration to done to him. If ever anyone human qualified or deserved for prostration would have been him. He forbade it.

You have noted it that I don't hold anyone letting/encouraging prostration to himself and those doing it as mushriks or outside pale of Islam.

But certainly they are earning displeasure of Allah Almighty and His Blessed Messenger (peace be upon him). Below is my stated position.

"So any person allowing people to prostrate to him in any manner and those doing the prostration are doing so in defiance to the express commands of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him)"

Those who encourage it are doing so for personal prestige and self promotion.

107

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

my view is: Sajda to other then Allah carries two implications 1) it is shirk, if done with the intention of Worship 2) it is Haram, if done with the intention of respect

the view of Tahir Ul Qadri is: Sajda Tazeemi is Haram…

Tahir Ul Qadri allows the kissing of his Feet, it is accepted in the mainstream as permissible, and that’s what the pictures should be about, and if they are not then he has gone on record to state his point of the sajda tazeemi being forbidden

Being happy with the ‘‘worshiping’’ of Yusuf Alaihis Salam is among the points in the Principles of Takfir of ‘‘Shaykh ul-Islaam Ibn Abdul-Wahhaab on Those Whom Takfir is Made Of And Principles Concerning Takfir of the Ignorant’’ http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/downloads/pdf/MNJ090005.pdf

Perhaps it would be ideal opportunity, and an example of integrity that this thread craves, you make clear revilement of such a Takfiri

108

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

May I ask, what is the basis of this belief that sajda to other than Allah was allowed in previous shariahs? Please elaborate on the example of Yousaf (as).

thx

109

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Enough has been said in this thread, so I am going to keep it short.
What do Ahmadies call mainstream muslims? Answer is quite simple, we CALL them Non-Ahmadi muslims. Why muslims? Because its their identity. They are not jews, not christians, not hindus, not sikhs etc etc, only identity they go by is "muslims".
As for what do we consider them to be. We consider them to be committing Kufr.

About Mr Psyah's comment that Ahmadis want to be recognized as muslims because it somehow legitimizes us ... totally absurd. Ahmadis dont need legitimacy from those whom we consider to be committing kufr. Our main purpose in being recognized as muslim is because this is who we are. "Muslim" is not some copyright material that a country's government can give or take away from a group of people. We want to be recognized as Muslim so we may call our places of worship by its true name "Masjid", so we may use the word "Assalamo Alaikum" and recite Kalima without being arrested, so we may call Azans in our masajid.

110

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Wow. That is very heartening to read, indeed very short and sweet.

So admit it that Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad – son and successor of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad got it all wrong when he stated your jamaat’s position as follows:

1) “the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as”.

2) “The article was elaborately entitled A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God'. The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely thatthose who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah'. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims”." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)

3) "Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)**

4) "not only are those deemed to be Kafirs who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 139 -140)

"And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs.( “pakkay kafir” his words in Urdu )" A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140)

Re-read the highlighted words:

“wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam”

“not Muslims”

“we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims”

“have here been adjudged to be Kafirs”

“were yet veritable Kafirs.(“pakkay kafir” his words in Urdu )”

Can pukkay kaffir be called “Non-Ahmadi muslims”?

Can people be “kuffar and outside the pale of Islam” and yet be “Non-Ahmadi muslims” at the same time??????

Whom are you trying to hoodwink?

Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad states the following too:

"Now another question remains, that is, as non-Ahmadis are deniers of the Promised Messiah, this is why funeral prayers for them must not be offered, but if a young child of a non-Ahmadi dies, why should not his funeral prayers be offered? He did not call the Promised Messiah as kafir. I ask those who raise this question, that if this argument is correct, then why are not funeral prayers offered for the children of Hindus and Christians, and how many people say their funeral prayers? The fact is that, according to the Shariah, the religion of the child is the same as the religion of the parents. So a non-Ahmadi's child is also a non-Ahmadi, and his funeral prayers must not be said. Then I say that as the child cannot be a sinner he does not need the funeral prayers; the child's funeral is a prayer for his relatives, and they do not belong to us but are non-Ahmadis. This is why even the child's funeral prayers must not be said. This leaves the question that if a man who believes Hazrat Mirza sahib to be true but has not yet taken the bai`at, or is still thinking about joining Ahmadiyyat, and he dies in this condition, it is possible that God may not punish him. But the decisions of the Shariah are based on what is outwardly visible. So we must do the same thing in his case, and not offer funeral prayers for him." (Anwar-i-Khilafat, page 93)

Note: he states as non-Ahmadis - and has omitted the word 'Muslim'

Either what you are saying is the truth; making Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad a first class liar or you are just hoodwinking everyone here, possibly including yourself.

Who is right from you two? I dare you to answer me. This you won't.

Respected brother bao bihari has provided evidence of above with scanned pages in his Post 38 & 63 – Please can you confirm them too or deny them at least?

111

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Peace obaid1982

I'm sorry but I cannot accept that ... probably in every other of your khutbahs you talk down about the mainstream Muslims ... you would be hard tried to catch us talking about others ... you will see many groups - just spend all their time and effort "legitimizing" themselves by saying "we do not do this like such and such people" or "such and such people are this and that" ... there will not be any kind thing said about a non-Ahmadi ... yet you don't hesitate to learn from our Islamic institutes when it suits you. This proves that you see the mainstream as legitimate, but will not openly give any credit to the mainstream. I had friendship with some Ahmadis since childhood ...

112

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Please don't twist the facts. The fact od the matter is that you guys are so much obsessed with us and our ideologies that people from your side have dedicated their lives finding faults in us. There are living examples who don't do anything other than throwing mud on us. If there are no Ahmadis, organizations like MTKN will run out of business. You will not find such people among us who are working against sunnis, salafis, shais or God knows how many different groups. We usually respond to allegations thrown at us. 99% of the time, it is people from your side who start threads about us with ulterior motives of course.

[quote]

you will see many groups - just spend all their time and effort "legitimizing" themselves by saying "we do not do this like such and such people" or "such and such people are this and that" ... there will not be any kind thing said about a non-Ahmadi ...

[/quote]

...and what example have you guys set. Your words are absolutely contrary to the facts. As we said earlier, we don't need any certification from your groups. It is you who do not stop at anything. declaring non-muslims, stopping from uttering kalima, arresting for reciting Quran. Who would do that. of course the one who is frustrated.

[quote]

yet you don't hesitate to learn from our Islamic institutes when it suits you. This proves that you see the mainstream as legitimate, but will not openly give any credit to the mainstream. I had friendship with some Ahmadis since childhood ...
[/quote]

I don't know which institute are you talking about. Yes, many a times, our kids learn how to read Quran from non-Ahmadi Qaris. This is an example that we consider them muslims but never learn tafasir from them.

113

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

My ummah will be divided into seventy three sects. All of them will be in the Fire except one. [Saheeh Muslim, no.976]

The Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) said that his ummah will be divided into 73 sects. Note he still considers 72 sects within his Ummah. These 72 sects will have discrepancies/ inconsistencies so will be cleansed of those with hellfire.

Each shall be punished in accordance to the innovations and deviation (it practiced), except for those who Allaah pardons and forgives. Their final abode will be Jannah.

Further evidence of this is annual Hajj. All Muslims go there irrespective of their antagonism/ sect as one Ummah. Overall Unity still evident from the gathering and all the rituals are practiced in unison.

You sir, are Ummah of Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani; in contrast you have your annual jalsa in the UK.

You present Ahmadiyya as one solid united group – this is far from the truth.

Look at the splits at the seams – these are early days – watch what happens soon within decades

  1. Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
  1. ‘Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for the Propagation of Islam’ (Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha’at-e-Islam Lahore).

AAIIL: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha’at-e-Islam Lahore (Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for the Propagation of Islam)

  1. Jamaat Ul Sahih Al Islam

Jamaat Ul Sahih Al Islam Official Website

Jamaat ul Sahih al-Islam - wiki

  1. Green Ahmadiyyat

Green Ahmadiyyat

  1. The Ahmadiyya Reform Movement

Jamaat Ahmadiyya Islah Pasand - The Official Website

  1. Jama’at-e-Ahmadiyya (Haqiqi)

Al-Ahmadiyyat -

  1. Jamaat Ahmadiyya Al Mouslemeen

Jamaat Ahmadiyya Al Mouslemeen

Are you all bhai bhai with each other?

114

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

This is becoming very absurd, Ahmadis here are really non-committal.

A lot of references and scanned pages from their books have given to them that clearly shows that it is integral part of Ahmadi belief that any person who doesn’t belief in mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s prophet hood is not a muslim and out of pale of Islam. The term ‘Pukkay Kaffir’ has been used by their eminent personality to emphasize the Ahmadi position.

All the Ahmadi posters here in a state of Denial even in presence of evidence from their books. They keep making statements contrary to what is in their books.
Either what they say is true or whatever written in their books is a lie. Or it is other way around.

To get around this impasse, I’ll the following statement:

I sincerely believe with the references from the Quran and the Sayings of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) that no new prophet will come in any form/shape.

I take Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be a charlatan and an imposter with his claims to be a mahdi, messiah and a prophet of Allah Almighty. I reject and denounce all his claims and throw them in waste paper bin just as he threw the Blessed hadith of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) in waste paper bin.

So I would like to ask the following obaid1982; kchughtai; Mr. Popat; u_ahmed; Mezhgan having read the above belief of mine:

1) Do you consider me out of pale of Islam (kaffir) as per your beliefs in your text books?

2) Or am I still a Non-Ahmadi Muslim?

If you opt for number 2 then it means that you have rejected what is in your books and also you disown statements made by Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad.

Looking forward to the responses.

115

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

sawal gandum jawab chana.

We are the bad guys. Fine. why don’t you talk about ‘good guys’ and tell us what is there in their pockets. pls answer the question.

116

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

ibne sadiq,

did you read the material I provided in post # 87. What say you?

117

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

^ My apologies** kchughtai** I cant read Urdu - so couldn't respond.

I did tell about the ‘good guys’ (quoted below) and I don't know what is in their pockets as I am not a pickpocket. :)

kchughtai My friend You missed this - please girdle up the loins of your mind and answer the following. We will get to about this thread is about.

Looking forward to your response.

118

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

"The covenant between us and them (that is, believers) is prayer, so if anyone abandons it he has become an infidel." (Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood, Nisai, Tirmidhi).

"What lies between a man and infidelity is the abandonment of prayer." (Muslim)

"If anyone abandons the afternoon prayer, his deeds are of no avail." (Bukhari).

Mu'adh bin Jabal (RAA) reported Allah's Messenger (SAW) as saying: "If anyone abandons prayer intentionally he has no claim to Allah Most High." (Ahmad)

Please elaborate on what these ahadith means ? one who abandons a prayer, he becomes an infidel. I kindly request anyone to please explain these ahadith to me. I request bao bihari, ibn sadique and psyah to put some light on these ahadith. Thanks.

119

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Peace Mr.Popat

To abandon something it has to have intent ... laziness, preoccupation with the intent to do it later, missing it due to forgetfulness are all blameworthy but do not carry the weight of the intentional abandonment ... Abandonment is to reject the validity of the prayer.

This is enough to throw a person out of Islam ...

Likewise, to reject the validity of a prophet and **informative beliefs about a given prophet** ... May the Pleasure and Blessings of Allah be on all the righteous true prophets ... then that too is enough to oust a person from the fold ...

120

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Can we get a clear cut answer for this?