What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Society Religion & Philosophy
241

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Wait a second. You are aware that your own scholars have given fatwas against shias, and shia scholars have given fatwas against ahl e sunnahs.. and even then you consider them to be Muslims and leave it on Allah to judge them. Is this some kind of a joke ? Are you saying that despite your scholars calling them kafir/non-muslims, you consider them Muslims because of the fact that they do hajj with you ? lol, funny.

First get your own thinking in line with your own scholars then you may go ahead and ask what we think of you.

[QUOTE]
Believe me Mr. Popat it bothers me in the least what you believe about me.

I am aware what answer you have given.

Do you agree with Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad?

Do you disown his statements?

I have already told you my stance on Shias.
[/QUOTE]

Do I agree with him? Yes.
Do I disown his statements? No.

Now what ? Do I still call you a Muslim ? Yes.

Why ?

Let me not get into the nitty gritty stuff that I have already spoke about earlier. We call you Muslim for the same reason your scholars despite calling shias kafir call them Muslims.

*
[QUOTE]
Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!*** 30:32**

Say: O people! indeed there has come to you the truth from your Lord, therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright only for the good of his own soul, and whoever goes astray, he goes astray only to the detriment of it, and I am not a custodian over you. 10:108

*May Allah Guide Us All To Truth and Keep Us On The Straight Path that earns His Pleasure and our Salvation *
[/QUOTE]

Everything else you said was your own opinion and didnt need any response.

There always becomes a jamaat every time a Prophet is sent by Allah. Quran does not condemn the jamaat which is formed after a prophet is sent. It is inevitable. What Qur'an forbids is to split religion and make sects by following people who are NOT sent by Allah. Deobandi, barelvis, wahabis etc are sects of Islam which were formed by their leaders who had different opinion about certain things from other sects. Note: none of these sects were formed by a person claiming to be from Allah, and Allah condemns those who split religion like this. You must also see which 'sect' of Islam are you following.

242

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

My friend Mr. Popat Earlier in your post you had attacked my level of maturity and claimed higher level of intelligence for yourself.

You can attack me to your heart's content – it worries me in the least.

You cannot throw doubt on the maturity and intelligence of the viewers here. You cannot hoodwink them.

Granted that ‘our’ scholars despite calling Shias kafir still call them Muslims – Note: They don’t consider them out of Pale of Islam

Likewise Shia scholars despite calling Sunni kafir still call them Muslims – Note: They don’t consider them out of Pale of Islam

You have made a claim on same lines that you take non-Ahmadis as kafir on the grounds that they have rejected a prophet but still call them Muslims and consider them within the Pale of Islam.

Now look at the statements and Position of *Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad *(He is son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and your second leader) :-

The belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as.

"The article was elaborately entitled A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God'. The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely thatthose who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah'. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)**

"Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)**

"not only are those deemed to be Kafirs who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 139 -140) **

"And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140) veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book

All here can clearly see that position of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad is definite, categorical, clear cut and uncompromising. He strongly considered all those who did not accept claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are:

so-called Muslims

are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam

not Muslims

we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims

deemed to be Kafirs

have here been adjudged to be Kafirs

veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book

Your position is diametrically opposite to that of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad!

Your statement "We call you Muslim" - even though you agree that we commit kufr by rejecting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad QAdiani

You have taken unattainable position – You cannot put your feet in two boats. Either you are right or Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad got it wrong.

You cannot throw doubt on the maturity and intelligence of the viewers here. You cannot hoodwink them.

243

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

How does it make sense in your head that sunni scholars call shias kaafir BUT dont consider them out of the pale of Islam? Are you agreeing with me that one can be a kafir and can still be Muslim ? You earlier raised a point that how can a kafir be called Muslim. Either he is Muslim or Kafir. One cannot be both. Same question goes back to you too.

So you agree that a Muslim can be called a kafir but can still remain within the pale of Islam ?

[QUOTE]
Now look at the statements and Position of *Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad *(He is son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and your second leader) :-

The belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as.

"The article was elaborately entitled A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God'. The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely thatthose who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah'. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)**

"Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)**

"not only are those deemed to be Kafirs who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 139 -140) **

"And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140) veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book

[/QUOTE]

Don't fool yourself. Your scholars call eachother kafir. Sunnis call Shias Kafir and shias call sunnis Kafir. Your scholars have enmity against eachother, consider eachother to be kafir by their hearts.. what good is it to call the other 'within the pale of islam' when your scholars hearts are full of hatred against each other?

Again, I repeat, we call you Muslim for the same reason your scholars call Shias Muslim despite numerous fatwas against them. Who decides whose 'within the pale of Islam' is not upto us. God is the best judge.

[QUOTE]
You have taken unattainable position – You cannot put your feet in two boats. Either you are right or Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad got it wrong.

You cannot throw doubt on the maturity and intelligence of the viewers here. You cannot hoodwink them.
[/QUOTE]

I think you should just calm down now. You have already done Islam a huge favor. Kindly think with your clear mind why your scholars have called shia Muslims as kaafir and still call them Muslim, and then come back here and entertain people. I dont need to hoodwink anyone. I got enough better things to do than that. Your job now is to find out why your scholars call shias kafir and also call them 'within the pale of Islam' ( therefore calling them Muslims ).

Hamari billi billi..tumhaari billi lilly ?

244

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

^ Now mind commenting on Mirza basheer statement?

245

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Peace Mr. Popat

Aqeedah is important in Islam as you know ...

There are differences in Sunni and Shi'a and Ahmadiyya and these are as follows:

The core rift between Shi'a and Sunni is political ... with the political rift growing prominence through time some of the Shi'a sided with Mu'tazili aqaid and the majority of Sunnis rejected that ... Today our differences are no longer just political but also dogmatic ... Shi'a sub-sects deviated even more and some groups now are unidentifiable with core Islam. Alhumdulillah sunni sects have had fewer issues with Divinity, but they have had some issues with the position and respect and nature of RasoolAllah (SAW).

Ahmadis rift was immediately a dogmatic one regarding finality of prophethood ... the rest of the early political differences were consequential ...

Core Muslim belief in its simplest manifestation is that Allah (SWT) is One and RasoolAllah (SAW) is His final messenger. The core Shi'a hold fast to this, but some of the Shi'a sects do not ... Technically speaking Ahmadiyya is a Sunni sect, just as is Parveziya, and the followers of Gohar Shahi - and from the Shi'a side the Bahai and Aga Khanis are all sects ... all of which DO NOT believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) is the final messenger ...

It is as simple as that ...

You as a person who were probably born in to an Ahmadiyya family would not be considered murtad by our guided ulema ... and you would be treated in a similar way as we would treat the Ahl-al-Kitab ...

So when asking about how we view Shi'a that has a range of responses some of which are that if they hold on to the correct beliefs of finality and of tawheed then the difference is political and they are classed under different grades of misguidance. But if they happen to have core beliefs outside Islam then they are labelled by our ulema as outside the pail of Islam.

Finality of prophethood is about as core as we can get ... and stemming from that ... the belief that Isa (AS) is alive is also core ... so these are inescapable ... We would expect that the way we view Christians for not accepting Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) would be similar to the way you view us for not accepting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ... Just as we call them outside Islam - you would for similar reasons say we are outside Islam.

But it appears that despite the clear statement coming from Mirza Bashir - that it is not the official position held by the Ahmadiyya (anymore) ... which is fine ... so you do take us to be Muslims - fine ... our boundaries are less fluid unfortunately and we cannot reciprocate that ... we have a duty to protect the boundaries of Islam - not just physical ones, but dogmatic ones too ... It seems Mirza Bashir wanted to do that ... but the modern day Ahmadi community do not see that as important anymore ... fine.

246

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Brother Psyah

the more we write to convinvce them the more data they have to divert the discussion9 see this thread , our queries and thier replies), l suggest approaching them on stepwise approach, regardless of what ever offtopic they ask, keep it pending unless they answer the actual thing.

247

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

My friend Mr. Popat – It is obvious to all that you are just dragging this debate into circular motion and are trying to sidestep answering the main issue and are employing diversionary tactics to avoid addressing the very glaring difference between what you and your friends are stating and the stance of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad.

You and your friends here consider the Muslims who reject all the claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and take him to a fraud, false prophet and a charlatan as Non-Ahmadi Muslims – and still consider them within the pale of Islam albeit a deviant sect.

Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad’s stance is diametrically opposite to what you and your friends are stating. He emphatically and categorically declares anyone who rejects claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani as Non- Muslims, Pakkay kaffirs and out of pale of Islam.

The difference between your stance and that of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad’s stance is like that of Day & Night.

You cannot maintain your stance and yet endorse that of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad.

Either what you and your friends here state is true. If you say that your stance is correct then you have disowned that statement of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad.

This is the logical conclusion from the above.

You cannot hoodwink anybody with your verbal somersaults & gymnastics by keeping your feet in two boats going in the opposite directions.

Of course with this kind of verbal somersaults & gymnastics you are going to fall flat on your face and sink in the deep water.

Let’s just stick to the topic at hand, which is: “What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream Muslims?”

You got to explain to us the statements of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad because his position is supreme in your jamaat.

Yet you are openly defying Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad’s position and presenting your stance on par with him.

You were crowing about your intelligence, now use it and explain to us in simple plain words without resorting to verbal somersaulting why you are adopting stance opposite to that of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad?

So far you have been ducking, diving and hedging to address the main issue.

I think you don’t read what has been posted by others for you!

I had already addressed the above in one of my previous posts.

The fatwas issued against each other are to do with Kufr al Asghar (Minor or lesser Kufr) this doesn’t take one out of pale of Islam but the one committing will have to face the consequences of punishment and cleanse themselves and will eventually end up in heaven.

My previous post I assume you missed reading it.

Let me repeat again – You are disowning the statements of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad.

Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad had banished anyone who did not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani out of pale of Islam and you in defiance to him are keeping mainstream Muslims within the pale of Islam.

Above is not comparable to Sunni –Shia situation. With all their mutual differences, antagonism and mutual animosity they do have inter-marriages, perform rituals of Hajj together at the same time each according to their own fiqh.

Allah Almighty has already given us very broad boundary to who is within the pale of Islam.

Care to educate us why Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad has thrown overwhelming majority of Muslims out of pale of Islam as pakkay kaffir and you in defiance to him are keeping them within fold of Islam?

This is the core issue of this thread

Read my previous post

248

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

[QUOTE]
Now look at the statements and Position of **Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad (He is son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and your second leader) :-

The belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as.

"The article was elaborately entitled A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God'. The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely thatthose who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah'. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)

"Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)

"not only are those deemed to be Kafirs who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 139 -140)

"And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140) veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book********
[/QUOTE]

Ibn Sadique, you must first apologize in public that you did NOT read straight from the book from which you are quoting. You must also be aware of the hadith in which Huzur PBUH said that for one to be a deemed as a liar, it is sufficient that he spread the heresay without confirming. You are boasting so much, but you must apologize before we go further that you copy/pasted the quotes above and misquoted them as well as given wrong page numbers (whatever you could find from your pocket of references ). You DID NOT read it from the original text.

What answer should I give to someone who is dishonest in his approach?

249

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

My friend Mr. Popat I must confess that I did not read directly from the books that I am quoting from – I don’t have access to those books and even if I did it won’t help me as I can’t Urdu, unfortunately.

But I trust the places where I get the quotes from as they are honest and sincere people.

Please show where I have boasted about myself?

You want me to apologise? I will do so publicly on this board but you have to present your proof that quotations are wrong!

Please post the scanned pages of the books and the pages to show misquotations have taken place.

Meanwhile brother bao bihari had posted some scanned pages from your books.

Do you mind commenting about the scanned pages - despite protests by brother bao bihari for attention to the scanned pages he was duly ignored!

Do you deny those highlighted quotations?

I hope brother bao bihari can translate the highlighted quotations.

Simple – to shut him up from spreading lies against your faith.

250

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

lol. You kept attacking without confirming. You kept talking and talking without even cross checking the references. You expect an answer for the quotes which dont even exist on the pages you mentioned. Its even more funny to be asking for answer to the scanned pages bao bihari posted which you have no clue about whats written in it.

You need to read my posts again please. It will really save mine and your time. Answer has been given to you by many people here. I don't know why you want to hear the kind of answer you would like. You asked a question, and reply is given. Our opinion is not different from that what you quoted. I have explained earlier in my posts how.

251

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

This is small search i did to find out about the number of time i asked about mirza basheer statement.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/search.php?searchid=1435460

Inshallah will reply later to the things brother ibn sadique has asked for.

252

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Mr. Popat You can ‘lol’ as much as you like to your heart’s content but last ‘lol’ will on your face.

I am not attacking but exposing lies of Ahmadis/Qadianis. Ahmadiyat is based on falsehood so to sustain this falsehood its followers have to resort to continuous lies to keep it going on.

As I said before I have taken the references from very trustable sources who are very honest and God fearing.

I pity your intelligence about which you were boasting earlier.

Yes I can’t read Urdu, that by no way means that I don’t have access to people who can read Urdu!!!

I know what is written in there! Lol from me.

It has to be noted that you have not denied the content of the scanned pages. Tacitly you have accepted it.

Did you say: “quotes which dont even exist on the pages you mentioned” LooooL?

Read my post number - 35 — Posted here on the 3rd March 2014

Therein I have given quotation of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad and at the end I have given the link to the book [Truth about the Split By Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad]. This book is on Ahmadi/Qadiani Website – so you can trust it.

I humbly request the viewers to scroll down to pages 56 and 57 on the link above and see for yourselves that I have quoted Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad word by word saying the following:

(3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as.

Mr. Popat, what you say? Are you still loooling?

Trust me other references provided shown below to refresh your memory] are as authentic as the above.

You can deny the above too. I’m sure ever resourceful brother bao bihari will get the scanned pages for you [and the viewers]

And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." The Blessed Quran 17:81

253

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

No,** Mr. Popat** its other way around – it’s you who have to go back and read my posts and reflect upon them.

I along with others and the viewers are well aware of what you and your friends have written.

All we want to know how you can reconcile your position with Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad statements.

Care to educate us why Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad has thrown overwhelming majority of Muslims out of pale of Islam as pakkay kaffir and you in defiance to him are keeping them within fold of Islam?

As I said before “Ahmadiyat is based on falsehood so to sustain this falsehood its followers have to resort to continuous lies to keep it going on”

See how unashamedly and blatantly your ‘khaleefahs lie about Ahmadi/Qadiani population. Without any fear of Allah Almighty – they only dupe themselves and their followers

And say: “Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.” The Blessed Quran 17:81

254

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Again, I can only sympathize with you. Let me ask you again.. did you 'read' it from the book you are quoting from ? you said to read page 56 and 57 .. who is going to read page 59 and 60 of the same topic ? This is the trait of Jews that you are following. Present something and hide things to make your point. Read page 59 and 60 to understand the concept of kufr. That's exactly what I said in my earlier posts. You are too fast in pointing fingers, but have spent not a minute researching about what sort of baseless and childish allegations you are making.

*
[QUOTE]
And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish*." The Blessed Quran 17:81
[/QUOTE]

Same goes for you too.

255

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

1-If he has quoted from some reliable source and if it is true quotation then what is the issue then?

2-Can you pose page 59/60 yourself,i think you may not have read that book also habibi, please post the pages and then prove whatever you are trying to say.

3- I have been requesting you guys to answer on mirza basheer statement(which is purposefully ignored by you), why not answer that.if you do not know the answer please ask some of your learned ones.

Those who accept the haq are the successful people in this duniya and akhirat.

256

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Mr. Popat – Please be civil and don’t get personal. If anybody needs growing up it is most probably you.

In your post quoted above you claimed that **“the quotes which dont even exist on the pages you mentioned” **now that you have been proven wrong, you turned around and start accusing others being childish. Please Grow up.

I only need the relevant material from your books to put it across you. I don’t have to go through the whole put just to get the relevant material.

You ask “.. who is going to read page 59 and 60 of the same topic?”

That’s your job** Mr. Popat** – If there was anything of importance or relevant in defence of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad you would have posted it here then.

I hope you are not suggesting that Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad has a split personality that he says something in pages 56 & 57 and completely opposite in 59 & 60. Are you?

I have read the relevant pages – please can you show us any things of importance in there.

Mr. Popat this is a debate so please keep it civil. Or maybe your only defense is to get this thread locked up by being rude to others.

I have managed to translate the scanned copy posted by **brother bao bihari **

It is letter written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani sometime in March 1906. It is recorded in TADHKIRAH addressed to Dr. Abdul Hakim murtad (apostate)

**Transliteration **

Khuda tala nay meray par zahir kiya hay kay har aik shaksh jiss ko meri dawat pohanchi hay orr ous nay mujhe qabol nahi kiya hay who musalman nahi hay. Orr khuda kay nazdeek mooaakhizah hay

Translation

“God Almighty has conveyed it to me that every person to whom my call [message] is conveyed and who does not accept me is not a Muslim and is accountable to God for this .” **(Letter addressed to Dr. Abdul Hakeem Murtad [the apostate). [TADHKIRAH, recorded under the year 1906].
**

There you go now you have the very words of your prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani declaring anyone who has heard his message [of him being a prophet] and rejected is not a Muslim [obviously meaning a kafir]!!!

Now are you to challenge Mr. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani

What more do you want?

Are you going to reject his statement too?

Earlier you had made a claim that I have been posting references which don’t exist on the pages mentioned.

That may be true as Ahmadis/Qadianis are known to alter the page numbers in new editions. This is very common phenomenon among them

Well you can check the scanned pages for the references I had posted

The site is managed by The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement

Scanned pages from A’inah-i Sadaqat, by Mirza Mahmud Ahmad

Scanned pages from A’inah-i Sadaqat

Declaring Muslims as kafir

Declaring Muslims as kafir

I am sure now you will come back with some preposterous chidish excuse that this is all a conspiracy against your jamaat.

Above scanned pages prove you wrong. I don’t have to apologize for exposing Ahmadiyat, as facts speak loud and clear.

You accused me of misquoting falsely and if you have any decency let me see you apologizing for a turn.

I am surprised that have completely ignored to defend your khaleefahs who have been exposed as liars by exaggerating Ahmadi/Qadiani population times 20 over!

What do have to say about the above fraud of your leaders?

Allah Almighty curses the liars.

257

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

[quote]

Peace Mr. Popat

Aqeedah is important in Islam as you know ...

There are differences in Sunni and Shi'a and Ahmadiyya and these are as follows:

The core rift between Shi'a and Sunni is political ... with the political rift growing prominence through time some of the Shi'a sided with Mu'tazili aqaid and the majority of Sunnis rejected that ... Today our differences are no longer just political but also dogmatic ... Shi'a sub-sects deviated even more and some groups now are unidentifiable with core Islam. Alhumdulillah sunni sects have had fewer issues with Divinity, but they have had some issues with the position and respect and nature of RasoolAllah (SAW).

[/quote]

Irrespective of the differences, ulemas of all (non-ahmadis) have issued fatawas of kufr and out of the pale of Islam against each other. Not just sunnis against shias and vice versa but within the sunnis as well. And we know the rule set by the prophet (pbuh) that when a muslim calls other kafir then one of them is kafir for sure. So what is the status of these takfiris? As far as Jammat-e-Ahmadiyya is concerned, we never took initiative in takfir and when takfir was done by our adversaries, we referred to holy prophet (pbuh)’s hadith that if we are not kafir then our takfiris are for sure.
As far as nature of differences and disagreements are concerned, you guys are quite lax on the divinity issues. Those who give sajda to graves and people other than Allah, those who call dead people for their troubles are all within the pale of Islam. Those who kill in sacred months, those who kill namzis in mosques are all within pale of Islam. Right? Just giving you examples.

[quote]

Ahmadis rift was immediately a dogmatic one regarding finality of prophethood ... the rest of the early political differences were consequential ...

[/quote]

The differences among the 72 are mere political. So just for political and secondary reasons, takfir is fine. Right? Which religion is this?
No the rift with Ahmadiyya was not on the finality of prophethood to begin with. It started with announcement of the death of Christian deity, Isa(as). Finality of the prophethood is not reality an issue in this regard. If it is then our adversaries are also guilty for the obvious reasons. In principle, a prophet was prophesized to come in later days.
[quote]

Core Muslim belief in its simplest manifestation is that Allah (SWT) is One and RasoolAllah (SAW) is His final messenger. The core Shi'a hold fast to this, but some of the Shi'a sects do not ... Technically speaking Ahmadiyya is a Sunni sect, just as is Parveziya, and the followers of Gohar Shahi - and from the Shi'a side the Bahai and Aga Khanis are all sects ... all of which DO NOT believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) is the final messenger ...

It is as simple as that ...

[/quote]

Setting aside the issue of finality of prophethood for a while, how does one become a muslim? It is by declaring that ONLY Allah is worthy of worship. He is one with no partners and Muhammad (pbuh) is His servant and His messenger. That’s it.
You guys deliberately avoided giving the definition of a Muslim. Let me do this for you.
When Mr. Justice Muhammad Munir asked various Muslim divines to define a Muslim, during the 1953 Enquiry, no two divines could unfortunately agree on any single definition. Mr. Justice
Muhammad Munir regretfully observed: "Keeping in view the several definitions given by ulama, need
we make any comment except that no two learned divines are agreed on this fundamental. If we attempt our own definition as each learned divine has done and that definition differs from that given by all others, we unanimously go out of the fold of Islam. And if we adopt the definition given by any one of the ulama, we
remain Muslims according to the view of that *alim *but *kaafirs *according to the definition of everyone else."

Here are a few ahadith that will help us in this regard:

1) Hadhrat Abu Huraiah relates that the Holy Prophetsa said: “Ask
me question”, but (his companions) were diffident to ask.
Meanwhile, a man came in and sat in front of the Holy Prophetsa
and asked: “What is Islam:?” The Holy Prophetsa replied “Do not
associate partners with Allah, offer prayer, pay Zakat and fast in
Ramadhan.” The man replied, “You have spoken the truth.”
Muslim, Kitab-ul-Iman]

2) One who observes the same prayer as we do, faces the same
direction (in prayer) as we do, and partakes from the animal
slaughtered by us, then such a one is a Muslim concerning whom
there is a covenant of Allah and His Messenger; so you must not
seek to hoodwink Allah in the matter of this Covenant. Bukhari,
Kitabus-Salat, Baab Fazl Istiqbal il-Qibla]2

So we are going about the above definition.

Now finality: Although mentioned numerous times, I will repeat again: We all know that Mahdi and Isa (as) was to appear near the end of times. Both of us believe this. When we ask how coming of Isa (as) does not violate the seal of finality then you guys invent all sorts of theories to justify your claim.
He will not be prophet.
He will be a prophet mere in name
His coming is fine since he was born first.
He will come with a new mission. But will get the knowledge of deen through ‘Inspiration’ and not wahi.
Etc. These theories make a mockery of the institution of prophethood. Pretty self-explanatory.
In short, a prophet was expected near the end of times since in ahadith, he is called nabi-ullah. And also that he will get wahi. So again, if we are guilty of going against a fundamental belief then you are not innocent either. It is as simple as that…

[quote]

You as a person who were probably born in to an Ahmadiyya family would not be considered murtad by our guided ulema ... and you would be treated in a similar way as we would treat the Ahl-al-Kitab ...

[/quote]

Ok consider us Ahl-al-kitab (Quran). Can you?
I think the ‘guided’ ulema may be quite rare. I have seen videos of some ulemas who have a horrible view about us and treat all of us as mutads irrespective of whether a person is Ahmadi by birth or else.

Finality is the core issue and believing in living Isa (as) is also core issue. Superb. Kiya kehnay.
We call you Muslims since you claim to believe in the oneness of Allah and that Muhmmad (pbuh) is the true messenger of Allah. The Mahdi/Isa was not to bring anything new but to revive the same teachings of prophet Muhammad(pbuh). He is not just a prophet as the promised Messiah has said. He is an ummati that is divinely guided. So the promised Messiah and his followers are bound to follow the same teachings and same injunctions but clearing fluff from real stuff. Jews who accepted or rejected Isa (as) are both Ahl-e-kitab (torah).
Just being a Muslim doesn’t mean that one is on the right path. How do I know that? I know that since the holy prophet (pbuh) counted all the 73 divisions as his ummatis and followers whereas only one group/jammat is on the right path. Simple.

more later..

258

Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

^ Dear brother kchughtai What’s above to do with the thread? The thread is about “What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream Muslims?”

My dear respected brother :salam:

Good post as always but I am going to differ on the highlighted part.

I think we cannot take Ahmadis/Qadianis (even those born into Ahmadiyyat faith) on par with Ahl-al-Kitab.

Reasons being:

  1. Ahmadis/Qadianis have opted to believe in a false prophet, one of the thirty foretold by the Blessed Messenger of Allah Almighty (peace and blessings be upon him)

  2. Muslim men are allowed to marry women from Ahl-al-Kitab. I don’t think Ahmadis/Qadianis are halal for Muslims; neither Muslim men for them :slight_smile:

We must accept that Ahmadis/Qadianis are monotheists and are not tainted with Shirk even though following a false prophet. In this world they are for certain classified as non-Muslims. Allah Almighty is the final Judge in the Hereafter. Allah Almighty has said that He can forgive all except for Shirk.

May Allah Almighty guide these good brothers of ours Kchughtai & Mr. Popat to see the light and come to the Islam of the Blessed Messenger of Allah Almighty (peace and blessings be upon him) - ameen

259

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

ibn sadique and bao bihari, its easy to gang up and just keep posting but not so easy to admit your mistake right? Ibn Sadique has copy/pasted references wrong. Did you confirm the references I quoted off from Ibn Sadique? they are NOT on the pages he mentioned. And, as I said how Muhammad PBUH that for one to be deemed as a liar, its sufficient that he propagates heresay without confirming.

Now, let me tell you what I said earlier (briefly) which page 59 and 60 of the book quoted says it too.

You are committing kufr. You cannot be called a Muslim if you reject a person sent by Allah. It is a duty of Muslim to accept the person sent by Allah. If you reject him, you r rejecting Allah.

Is that part clear enough?

Then you ask why we call you 'Muslim' ?

We call you Muslim because you call yourself Muslim. A brief definition of who is a Muslim is posted above by kchughtai by giving ahadith references.

You call Ahmadis kafir, and by the hadith of Holy Prophet PBUH which says if a Muslim calls another kafir than one of them is kafir. By that, you become kafir. However, we dont play name games. We leave it on Allah to judge.

You are committing kufr and will be answerable to Allah. Tell me where is it that we are 'disowning' what's written in the book ? Why don't you try to understand what we are saying? You seem to be the only person wishing to be called a kafir.

What saddens me is the fact that you dont apply this situation on your own self. When Isa(as) do come back according to your belief, and if you happen to believe Him, what would you call those 'Muslims' who will reject Him? This question seems very simple, but has answers to all your questions. It's like you have admitted that you're not accepting anyone sent by Allah, but a mere 'belief' of someone 'returning' will keep you Muslims.

For us, being called a Muslim or not by worldly people hold very less value. As long as Allah accepts us as Muslims and His Prophet pBUH calls us Muslim, we care not a bit what you call us. But same is not the case with you. You like to be 'called' a Muslim by mere beliefs and are happy with it, without giving it a thought about what your actual beliefs are.

Anyway, I know that the purpose of this thread has been fulfilled. Answers have been given to you. Read and think with the brain God has given you.
I think I'm done from this thread. God bless.

260

Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

^ You are saying that quotes are incorrect? what took you so long to arrive at that. i have posted scanned images what you say about that.

259 posts and still basic question is not answered, what about mirza basheer statements along with other quoted statements.

it is good to close the discussion here as enough evidence is there for sane person to know haq, but please dont try to sneak again after few months and just distort facts to confuse readers.see post # 215.

may ALLAH guide all to haq.